The Secret Sauce of Video Game Story Design, with Ed Kuehnel

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Welcome to Playmakers.

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I'm your host, Jordan Blackman.

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And this is episode six, where I

interview award winning writer and

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narrative designer, Ed Connell.

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You know, on every episode of Playmakers,

what we do is we interview an expert

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at some part of the gaming industry,

something to do with either the creative,

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the development, or the business aspects.

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And we go deep on that subject so

that you can break out of the box

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that you're working in and achieve new

levels of creative and business success.

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This is a great one with Ed Connell.

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More on it after the little

cool noise that's coming up.

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That was the cool noise.

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It was cool, right?

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Okay.

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Episode six, Ed Connell.

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Ed is an award winning writer.

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Valiant Hearts won the 2014 Game

Award for Best Narrative, and it

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also won an Annie Award in 2014

for Best Animated Video Game.

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So playing this game is part

of why I wanted to have it on.

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The game just had an amazing tone, a great

story, and some really Cool characters.

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And I thought it was just very ambitious

for the size of the game that it is.

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It's a, it's a small, it's

a relatively small game.

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It's a downloadable game

and it's both ambitious.

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And I think it does a great job of

achieving those ambitions and having

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worked on games where stories are

told in small chunks, I know what

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a challenge that is, and I know

what Ed achieved in valiant hearts.

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So we talk about that.

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And we get into some structure stuff,

because Ed, in addition to Valiant Hearts,

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in addition to working on Leisure Suit

Larry, in addition to working on Hunter

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the Reckoning, I want to say Hunter the

Gathering, that's funny, in addition to

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those games, he also has done some work

with Telltale Games, and we talk a little

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bit about what he learned there as well.

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Now, I had made some games with Telltale

when I was at Ubisoft, and Ed and I had

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actually worked together on some things

in the past as well, so we had a bit

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of a rapport, and you'll see that when

we get going, Ed reveals some personal

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stuff about his past and his history

and how he got into writing in games.

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From there, we dive into a Pretty

detailed discussion about story

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structure and how to design a story

that's going to work with your gameplay.

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And Ed shares specific frameworks

that he uses to craft great

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stories that will work as games.

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Now, I'm going to take a lot of the

stuff that Ed talks about in this

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episode and turn it into a handy

story cheat sheet that you can use.

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You can find that at PlayMakersPodcast.

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com.

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Go there and we will have a chat.

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A cheat sheet in the post for

this episode for you to download.

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And, uh, I'm going to leave

the intro short on this one.

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Here is my conversation with Ed Connell.

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And thank you so much

for coming on Playmakers.

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Yes.

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Thank you for having me.

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Good to have you on the show.

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And I wanted to start by learning

a little bit about how you got to

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be You, how you became game writer

with over 50 games under your belt.

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Well, let's see.

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So my particular path, it

sort of went like this.

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I always wanted to work in games

or in something creative, like

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animated films or something.

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44 now that like when I was 15 or 16,

I'd never heard the phrase game designer.

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I don't know that it

was being used at all.

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I just knew that I had no talent at all.

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As an artist, and I think I even kind

of knew that just programming was not

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going to be where I was going to see

a lot of success, but I played some

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of the early, um, LucasArts adventure

games made by some of my, um, I guess by

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some of my heroes in the game industry.

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Like Ron Gilbert, you know, and I'm

talking about monkey Island and those

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games and you could play them and

they were funny and they were cool.

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And you could tell, well, somebody

had to come up with these jokes.

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Somebody had to, you know, come

up with these puzzles or these

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challenges for the player.

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Somebody had to kind of

put this all together.

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And I didn't know it at the time, but

that somebody was where somebody's was

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Tim Schafer, who now runs double fine.

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Uh, and Dave Grossman, who for a long

time was the creative director at telltale

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games and is now with a startup called

ear play and Ron Gilbert was, um, sort

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of, I don't, I think this is accurate.

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He's kind of like the creative

director and some of those games and

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he's still out there making games.

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And so I, I guess I, I kind of knew what

I wanted to do from an early age, but had

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absolutely not a clue how to get there.

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You know, and I, I grew up in Portland,

Oregon where there no game industry,

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no film industry, no television, really

nothing at the time, but also I, I had,

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I think, uh, even as a kid, you know,

I, I lacked a lot of confidence and I

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didn't have the confidence to, to like,

you know, say, this is what I want to do.

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And I'm going to darn it.

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I'm going to do it.

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You know, I had, I had a lot of issues

as a kid with depression and I was.

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Already on my way to forming an addiction

around some coping mechanisms and my

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parents, you know, God bless them.

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They're, they're great people and I

have a good relationship with them now.

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And they always, I think, you know,

did their best, but they were not

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the kind of people where you could

say, Hey, I want to, I want to, I

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want to work in video games and I

want to, I want to have this creative

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job that just was not going to fly.

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They're from New York originally.

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And they were, you know, they

can, they came from a blue collar.

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Background themselves and that

doesn't make any sense to them.

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Yeah.

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I think for that generation, they

don't really, didn't really understand

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games as a career possibility.

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It was just a nuisance.

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You know, sometimes they'd have to shell

out some quarters so that you could play

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games at the red Robin while you waited

for your, But, uh, to make a long story

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slightly less long, I finally figured

it out and at about age 29 or, you know,

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my late twenties, I was in Chicago where

they did have a small game industry and

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I was just happened to be walking along

ahead of this kind of his dead end job

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that I hated, but, and I was walking along

and I could see the offices of Bungie.

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You know, at the time Bungie was in

Chicago, they'd yet to be bought by

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Microsoft and they'd made some really

cool games pre Halo, actually, that I

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really liked, uh, the myth series and I

don't know how, but I could tell this was

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where their office and I could look inside

and I could see, you know, all these

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people and how cool their desks were.

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All these cool posters and

video games and toys everywhere.

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And I thought, you know, why not me?

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Why can't I, I figured this out.

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Why can't I, I get there.

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I'd always wanted to do it.

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Why did I, why did I just give up on that?

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So I started kind of positioning myself

in such a way that I would be a good

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candidate for a job and I took some object

oriented programming classes thinking at

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least I could maybe learn enough to be

able to talk to programmers competently.

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And I would start taking industry people

to lunch and asking them, you know,

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questions and just doing whatever I could

to position myself as a viable candidate.

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And I got lucky when high voltage software

in the burbs there, Chicago was hiring

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for an assistant producer on paper.

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Anyway, I was, I was maybe slightly

Overqualified, but I think I won them

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over with, you know, my passion and,

you know, me wanting, you know, the job

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so, so badly and already being there

in Chicago and that's where I got in.

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That's where I broke in and,

um, I spent five years there.

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And then afterwards, you know, I was

able to, to make sort of the sneaky

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lateral shift to a more creative role.

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What games are you working

on at high voltage?

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High voltage was, uh, you

know, as a producer Hunter,

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the reckoning was a, yeah.

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It's a little Xbox title, but I didn't

have much to do with, aside from, you

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know, again, being an assistant producer.

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I remember it being reviewed well.

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For the studio, for the time, it

was maybe their biggest success.

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And again, I did not have a large hand

in it, but, uh, we, then we made a,

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uh, a game for the PS2, uh, for Disney

interactive based on the movie, uh, Lilo

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and Stitch, which was actually pretty fun.

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And that was my first foray

as a, as a game designer.

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And then I worked on leisure, closed

out my career there with leisure suit.

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Larry Magna cum laude.

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Nice.

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Um, second to last.

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Leisure Suit Larry game, one that

certainly helped bury the franchise

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for its final nail in the coffin.

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There's no way.

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That's not buried.

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That's coming back.

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After five years there, you know,

uh, learning everything about,

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you know, how games are made.

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That would get kickstarted in a week.

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Well, and the fact that Al Lowe did

kickstart what was mostly, I think,

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a re, a reboot of the first one with

this, with, with some added content and,

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Maybe that was the nail in the coffin.

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I don't know.

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So five years there, got laid off, moved

back to Portland and thought that was it.

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That was over.

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In fact, I took a full time job at a

company called Gerber Legendary Blades.

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When I moved back to Portland, I

tried everything I could to get a,

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uh, still stay in the game industry.

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And, you know, but again, there

was still no industry in Portland.

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And, um, I, I, nobody was

wanting to hire me for like a

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telecommuter or anything like that.

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So I really thought my career was over.

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It was really resentful because I just

had spent five years putting my heart

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and soul into a career that just in,

in Portland, Oregon did not exist.

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And, uh, felt like I just

wasted five years of my life.

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I got a job at a company that made.

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Knives for hunters and for the military

and spent two years Gerber, the

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reckoning Gerber, yeah, spent two years

going to like trade shows, including

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going to the NRA, you know, uh, going

to the annual NRA, I cannot imagine

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you at those at those trade shows,

man, which where I met Ted Nugent.

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I got to meet Ted Nugent.

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It was one good thing about, about

working there besides, you know, they

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gave me a paycheck, but I got to meet

Ted Nugent at the NRA conference.

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And he has a son, a metrosexual

son named Toby, which surprised me.

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Yeah.

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I would think that Ted

Nugent's son would be.

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You know, like Harley or tap buddy,

but it's, he has a son named Toby who

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does, it did not look like a him at

all, but anyway, thankfully I started

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getting pinged for freelance jobs

from people that I'd, I'd networked

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with or met and it started to

snowball eventually was able to quit.

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And do this full time.

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And for the last 10 years, I've

been very busy working full time.

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And I've worked on a lot of games,

uh, as you pointed out, because as a

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freelancer, it's, you know, you get

pulled onto a project, you work for a

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couple of weeks, a couple of months,

and then when they're done with you,

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you get to move on and you can, you can,

you know, sometimes work on multiple

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projects and it's really fun and exciting.

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Cause I think I've worked

on almost 60 games now.

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Wow.

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You know, the, the diversity is,

of, of projects is, is wonderful

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working with different people.

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And that's part of what's really exciting

is, you know, things are, are fresh.

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That's kind of how I got to be here.

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You did ultimately get the chance

to work with Dave Grossman, right?

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Over at Telltale.

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I got to work with Dave Grossman while

at Telltale, his people had hired me.

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Yeah, I got to interact with him

and I got to work for Telltale.

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What happened was, while at High

Voltage Software, Dave Grossman and

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Noah Falstein, two of these, you

know, people who worked on games that

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made me want to be a game designer.

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They were both freelancers at

the time and we hired them.

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They came out to high voltage and they

kind of let us in on the secret sauce

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of how they would plan, uh, narratively

and structurally plan out one of their

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games, like a monkey island or something.

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Well, now that you've said the

phrase secret sauce, I'm going to be

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spending the rest of the interview

trying to get the secret sauce.

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It's nothing too crazy, but I mean,

they basically showed, showed us,

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like, here's the process of how

we would put together, you know, a

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really cool sort of interactive story.

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So I got to spend, you know,

a week learning from these

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guys, which was awesome.

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And then later, when Dave Grossman

became creative director at

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Telltale, I got to use their process.

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For him for telltale and,

you know, get better at it.

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And I applied it to, to most, if not

all of my, my other, the 60 games I've

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worked on, and that's another privilege

of being a freelancer is you just, you

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get a lot of chances to sort of get better

at it, make mistakes, get better, you

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know, like a screenwriter is hopefully

writing has written dozens of screenplays

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and, you know, some of them aren't going

to be great, but it doesn't matter.

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It's just, it's the repetition and the.

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It's how you get better and instead

of working on one game for two years

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and then, you know, seeing it ship, I

get to put this process in place and

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do it over and over and over again.

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I want to hear more about the secret

sauce and more about the learnings.

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But before we get to that, I want

to ask you a little bit more about

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what are some of the projects, what

are some of the The games that have

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shaped you as an interactive writer

and some of your favorite stories.

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Well, certainly, you know, I

mentioned some of those early,

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um, what we call point and click

adventure games made by LucasArts.

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Maniac Mansion, the, there

was the Indiana Jones.

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Yeah.

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A Grim Fandango was a real big one.

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Day of the Tentacle.

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Yeah.

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I mean, those three had everything

I wanted in that they were funny.

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They were sort of intellectuals,

intellectually stimulating.

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They told like a cool story, but, but

when it didn't take itself, you know,

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too seriously nowadays, I'm still a

telltale fan, you know, that they're

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different in, in that, um, I don't think

telltale even refers to them as games.

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They're, they call them, I

think, cinematic experiences,

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but they still feature some

amazing writing and storytelling

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and, and, and I, I still play.

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Almost everything telltale

makes and get inspired by it.

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You know, the walking dead

series was, was really great.

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So it was a fable, the series they

did based on the comic book, you know,

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naughty dog, um, the last of us is,

was, was, is a, you know, I, I thought

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a great, a great game and a great story.

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And not necessarily like, you know,

this is the best story you're, you're

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ever going to hear about a zombie

apocalypse, but just competent.

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Merging of gameplay and story into just

a really highly satisfying experience.

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I think it's one of the best single player

stories I've ever experienced in a game.

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And I think it is that way, again, not

because they somehow reinvented the wheel

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of interactive storytelling, but it's just

the characters feel three dimensional.

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The dialogue is great.

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It just feels very competent.

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It's like, you know, this is how

You know, big budget games should

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be doing it every time, right?

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I think they did an amazing job of

picking a world that would let them

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tell a story of these characters.

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It's, it's almost like they, you

know, realize some of the issues they

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had with Uncharted and designed a, a

story in a world that would, you know,

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Make those a lot more palatable or

turn those weaknesses into strengths.

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So much of, I think, good game writing

is that you have to do so much in

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the way of intricate planning to,

to make sure that, um, you, you,

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you are able to tell a great story.

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And I think Naughty Dog recognizes

that, you know, action adventure.

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Action adventure makes for a great game.

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It makes for a great story.

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You just have to, you know, intertwine

the two well, and you're in good hands.

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But, and, and, and, but then so

many people in games don't do it

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well, which is baffling, right?

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Like games are all about action

and games do action and adventure

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really, really easily, really well.

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So you should, you know, you should be

able to then tell an active, an action

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adventure story paired with, with an

action and adventure game mechanics.

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There's, there's almost

no excuse not to be good.

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I think a lot of studios have

trouble really knowing what

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they're trying to do as a group.

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And Naughty Dog clearly, clearly doesn't.

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I mean, one of the things that comes to

mind for me is like, in the opening, I

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don't remember the name of his daughter.

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I don't remember the name

of any of the characters.

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But the daughter, you know,

you actually play as her.

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for that entire opening sequence and,

and, uh, spoiler alert, she dies.

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But playing as her first really makes

you assume that's not going to happen.

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It's part of what makes the story

work and makes it so affecting

292

: 00:16:46

when, when that surprise comes.

293

: 00:16:48

It's not much storytelling and also

character development, which, which we're

294

: 00:16:52

really short on in the game industry.

295

: 00:16:55

We don't take time to flesh out

our, our, our characters and

296

: 00:16:59

make them unique individuals.

297

: 00:17:01

We barely have time to spend with them

before production starts, and that's

298

: 00:17:06

why so often they're paper thin, and

they're almost more like amalgams of

299

: 00:17:12

different characters, you know, cliches

than they are fully fleshed out people.

300

: 00:17:17

Right, because at least with a

cliche, you can quickly get the

301

: 00:17:20

player to understand who this is.

302

: 00:17:22

You can, I mean, I guess there's,

you know, there's some advantages to

303

: 00:17:26

just, you know, here's your grizzled.

304

: 00:17:28

Space, Marine , you kind

of know what we're in for.

305

: 00:17:32

I think it's mostly laziness, you

know, laziness or, you know, if you,

306

: 00:17:37

and in a way, you know, ignorance.

307

: 00:17:39

I mean, and, and not that I,

I, I, I am, you know, a master

308

: 00:17:43

at this or anything at all.

309

: 00:17:44

I had to learn kind of the hard

way, like, like every other game

310

: 00:17:46

writer, I suppose who, who didn't

have a formal education and creative

311

: 00:17:50

writing, it's, we're just in a hurry.

312

: 00:17:52

We want to get going.

313

: 00:17:54

And so.

314

: 00:17:55

You know, who should

be your main character?

315

: 00:17:56

I'll just, how about, you know, this

grizzled space Marine and his name is,

316

: 00:18:00

you know, Lance, you know, fire storm.

317

: 00:18:04

And okay, here we go.

318

: 00:18:07

Production starts next week.

319

: 00:18:09

Let's not think about it too much further,

but it's interesting when you, when you,

320

: 00:18:13

when you're in your room, maybe with a

creative director at a, at a game studio.

321

: 00:18:17

And you get to know them and you

get to know like what their, their,

322

: 00:18:20

their favorite films are or their

favorite comic books or, or favorite,

323

: 00:18:24

you know, sci fi novels or whatever,

almost always all those things, all

324

: 00:18:31

those things that they love about a

particular film or, or something is, is.

325

: 00:18:37

Because, you know, the, the, the author

of the filmmakers spent a lot of time

326

: 00:18:42

figuring out who these characters

were and who they are and what makes

327

: 00:18:45

them special and unique and different

and what contradictions that they

328

: 00:18:48

have and, and where they're from.

329

: 00:18:51

And, um, a very few people

in games, I think, do that,

330

: 00:18:54

but I think Naughty Dog does.

331

: 00:18:56

I think like Telltale Games

does and a few others.

332

: 00:18:59

That's why their, their stuff stands

out, you know, ahead of the pack

333

: 00:19:02

when it comes to storytelling.

334

: 00:19:04

You know, one thing that's interesting

as you kind of list out those studios

335

: 00:19:07

is they're all studios that tend to

make their very specific kind of game.

336

: 00:19:12

And not be like going from genre

to genre or really being incredibly

337

: 00:19:17

innovative on the gameplay side.

338

: 00:19:19

And I think that maybe that

structure helps them too.

339

: 00:19:22

Sure, I mean, I think, you know, studios

always benefit from constantly trying

340

: 00:19:25

to perfect games of a certain genre.

341

: 00:19:29

You know, maybe like if you have a writing

staff and you've hired them based on their

342

: 00:19:33

ability to tell cool action adventure

stories, it's probably a good idea not

343

: 00:19:39

to Pivot and try to have maybe have those

people do something that they're not

344

: 00:19:44

great at because, you know, different

different writers are good at different

345

: 00:19:47

things and people have some range, but

it's just not, uh, it's, it's interesting.

346

: 00:19:51

I mean, there are, you know, talking

to clients or prospective clients,

347

: 00:19:55

they tend to think that maybe a

good writer is just a good writer.

348

: 00:19:58

It can do almost everything,

but it's just, it's not so.

349

: 00:20:00

You wouldn't hire Aaron

Sorkin to do Saw XI.

350

: 00:20:04

Right, yeah.

351

: 00:20:05

And, and, you know, I,

I'm not terribly great.

352

: 00:20:08

I'm, I'm finding out more and more.

353

: 00:20:10

I'm just not terribly great

at, at straightforward, like

354

: 00:20:15

science fiction or high fantasy.

355

: 00:20:17

I'm, I'm not great at it.

356

: 00:20:19

Which is unfortunate because I like

that stuff, but I'm not good at it.

357

: 00:20:22

Let's talk a little bit about Valiant

Hearts because I think that's, that's

358

: 00:20:25

a really cool story and also one of the

things that I think is amazing given

359

: 00:20:29

what we're talking about, about The

challenges of crafting a good story that

360

: 00:20:34

it's a, it's a pretty small game, right?

361

: 00:20:36

I mean, it, it, I think it was

originally conceived of as a

362

: 00:20:40

downloadable kind of XBLA style game.

363

: 00:20:43

It was going to be episodic and

each episode was going to focus on

364

: 00:20:48

one of those distinct characters.

365

: 00:20:51

So you had, uh, you know,

the woman who was Belgian.

366

: 00:20:54

And was an ambulance driver.

367

: 00:20:57

Uh, yeah.

368

: 00:20:58

And, uh, you had, uh, an American

soldier, which was a bit of a stretch

369

: 00:21:03

cause America didn't get, get involved

until pretty much the end of that war.

370

: 00:21:07

You had, I think, uh,

Neil, who was a Frenchman.

371

: 00:21:11

Potential son in law who, who

was, who was drafted against

372

: 00:21:14

his will to the German army.

373

: 00:21:17

He had a daughter and then there

was going to be another one who

374

: 00:21:19

didn't, I think maybe he has a cameo

in the game, but he was mostly cut

375

: 00:21:26

and that we had a British aviator.

376

: 00:21:28

They're all implemented

with, with so much panache.

377

: 00:21:30

You know, and the international

aspect is really a fun part of that.

378

: 00:21:33

Yeah, Valiant Hearts is, it's one of

the coolest, for me, just most fun,

379

: 00:21:37

coolest things I've ever worked on,

and it was the one, and it was one

380

: 00:21:40

that really challenged me, you know.

381

: 00:21:42

I tend to focus on light hearted stuff, or

even just, you know, straight up comedic

382

: 00:21:47

stuff, and I tend to be pretty good at it.

383

: 00:21:50

I tend to do pretty well with it and

I do a lot of it and I can, maybe

384

: 00:21:55

there's a little bit of, uh, I don't

want to say that I, you know, I think

385

: 00:21:58

I work hard, but, um, maybe there's

just a little bit of comfort there or

386

: 00:22:03

arrogance from like, yeah, I got this.

387

: 00:22:05

You know, I got this.

388

: 00:22:06

No problem.

389

: 00:22:07

I can keep the jokes going

and, and, you know, no problem.

390

: 00:22:11

And then you get to something

like valiant hearts.

391

: 00:22:14

Where it's, you know, a serious

story and the studio, uh, Ubisoft

392

: 00:22:19

studio in Montpellier has made

some great games in the past.

393

: 00:22:23

This really meant a lot to them, this

game, because this for, for them,

394

: 00:22:26

this is their war, you know, for

America, for us, it's world war two

395

: 00:22:29

for, for them, it's world war one.

396

: 00:22:31

And they were coming up on

the hundredth anniversary.

397

: 00:22:33

Of the war and they decided, Hey,

you know, if anyone's going to

398

: 00:22:36

make a game, uh, about what we're

one, it's gotta be a French studio.

399

: 00:22:40

I think their superiors

may be in Ubisoft Paris.

400

: 00:22:43

We're, we're, you know,

we're understandably not

401

: 00:22:45

necessarily super thrilled.

402

: 00:22:48

I mean, you know.

403

: 00:22:50

Uh, about the, the commercial viability

of a, of sort of an adventure game

404

: 00:22:55

centered around World War One.

405

: 00:22:57

So here they are,

they're making this game.

406

: 00:22:59

I think they had started with

somebody else and it just didn't

407

: 00:23:01

work out for whatever reason.

408

: 00:23:03

So they, they, uh, had myself and

Matt Enten, with whom I've done a

409

: 00:23:07

lot of work with in the past, fly out

to Montpellier and, um, help them.

410

: 00:23:13

So I did what I do with a lot of clients.

411

: 00:23:16

Except this was, this was just

much more, much more difficult.

412

: 00:23:18

But basically we, we, we all sat in

a room together and we had this giant

413

: 00:23:23

whiteboard and we basically plotted

out the entire game in flowchart form.

414

: 00:23:30

I've seen you do one of those on a project

that we worked on together briefly.

415

: 00:23:34

So I have some sense.

416

: 00:23:35

Of what that might look like.

417

: 00:23:36

So it looks just like this.

418

: 00:23:38

So, and you start from the end,

you decide where this thing, where,

419

: 00:23:41

where this thing's gonna end.

420

: 00:23:42

And then you work backwards and

you, I feel like we're getting

421

: 00:23:45

a little secret sauce right now.

422

: 00:23:47

A little bit, yeah.

423

: 00:23:47

This is what Telltale taught me to do.

424

: 00:23:48

You, you start with the ending, going

backwards and, uh, deciding, you know.

425

: 00:23:54

Okay, in order to get to the ending,

what has to happen, you know, immediately

426

: 00:23:58

before that to, to we get to the end?

427

: 00:23:59

Okay, so you've got that step down.

428

: 00:24:01

Now, what has to happen

before you even get there?

429

: 00:24:04

What's, what's the immediate

step prior to that point?

430

: 00:24:07

And you keep working backwards.

431

: 00:24:08

You have all these branching, branching

points where, you know, the player

432

: 00:24:11

can maybe make different decisions

that affect different things.

433

: 00:24:14

And so you come away with this big,

just ugly looking horizontal flow chart.

434

: 00:24:18

Okay.

435

: 00:24:19

With all these twists and

turns, but it helps immensely.

436

: 00:24:22

It's the structure of your

game, the backbone of your game.

437

: 00:24:25

With Valiant Hearts, it was harder

because, uh, we had these four or

438

: 00:24:29

five playable characters, all of

whom, and you take a turn playing

439

: 00:24:34

all of these different characters.

440

: 00:24:37

Their, their lives needed to

intersect at certain points.

441

: 00:24:41

The game needed to cover the entire war.

442

: 00:24:45

So from like 1914 all the

way through: 1918

443

: 00:24:48

going to hop, skip, and jump.

444

: 00:24:49

Were some of these decisions

made back when it was originally

445

: 00:24:52

conceived as an episodic experience?

446

: 00:24:54

Uh, yeah.

447

: 00:24:54

Yeah, even when we were planning it,

it was still going to be episodic.

448

: 00:24:58

It does make sense to me of some of

what the game is doing, knowing that.

449

: 00:25:01

Yeah, we were going to hop, skip and jump

through four years of World War One for

450

: 00:25:06

playing what five different characters

whose lives needed to intersect at points

451

: 00:25:11

and, you know, and branch off in others.

452

: 00:25:14

And we had to stay true to history.

453

: 00:25:16

So we couldn't just say, Oh, yeah,

there was like a, like a battle here.

454

: 00:25:20

And, and, you know, the, the

French were going to win it.

455

: 00:25:23

And we didn't, we didn't want to, they

didn't want to play with any history.

456

: 00:25:26

We had our, we had our books out and

we were like, okay, on this date.

457

: 00:25:30

This incredible thing happened

and we want to be there for it.

458

: 00:25:34

And so how can we incorporate it into our

timeline in a way that, uh, honors history

459

: 00:25:40

and at the same time, you're just, you're

trying to tell an entertaining story.

460

: 00:25:43

It was a pretty daunting challenge,

but we just sat there in this

461

: 00:25:47

conference room every day for a week.

462

: 00:25:50

And, uh, did an episode per day.

463

: 00:25:55

Um, until everybody was happy

with, with, with what we had.

464

: 00:26:00

And, uh, it was, you know, by the end

of it, it was, it was exhilarating.

465

: 00:26:04

So is it sort of like a

five act experience then?

466

: 00:26:07

I suppose so.

467

: 00:26:09

It's been a while since I played it.

468

: 00:26:10

I mean, of course I played it when it

came out, they had, they'd cut one.

469

: 00:26:15

Like I said, they, they, they, they

cut a character from, from it and cut.

470

: 00:26:20

Um, His episode, so to speak, I'm not

sure, you know, structurally, I, I'm not,

471

: 00:26:25

I'm not, I'm not sure I'd have to play it

again to kind of see if that holds true,

472

: 00:26:30

but, um, well, it's really a different

experience just having it be one game

473

: 00:26:34

instead of, instead of being episodic, of

course, when you leave and you go away.

474

: 00:26:37

We went back, you know, we

met and I went back home.

475

: 00:26:40

We were then writing scenes.

476

: 00:26:41

Uh, there's not much dialogue in the

game, but we're still writing scenes

477

: 00:26:45

and writing things like letters from,

uh, soldiers to home from the front.

478

: 00:26:50

And meanwhile, the team, you know,

they're, they're developing this game.

479

: 00:26:54

They've, they've got to make changes.

480

: 00:26:56

So, you know, it went from episodic to

just being, you know, one, one experience.

481

: 00:27:00

And, um, you know, they have to make

other, Structural changes based on

482

: 00:27:05

who knows, you know, cuts to levels,

schedule, um, new features, you know,

483

: 00:27:12

just rethinking things, stuff like that.

484

: 00:27:13

It's par for the course, but, but

the end result was pretty close

485

: 00:27:17

to what we had worked out with

'em, and I was really excited and

486

: 00:27:20

proud and happy to, to play it.

487

: 00:27:22

It's a great story and you know,

it's this relatively small.

488

: 00:27:28

Game that feels epic and and knowing

that that it was episodic kind of kind

489

: 00:27:33

of makes sense of the you know The

story being pretty has a lot going on

490

: 00:27:38

but also yes, somehow it manages to

have Real emotional impact with these

491

: 00:27:42

characters who don't yeah, like you said

don't even do that much speaking and

492

: 00:27:47

and it's pretty incredible Yeah, the

talented group in Ubisoft Montpellier.

493

: 00:27:52

Yeah, I wish we wish we could have done

more, you know With Valiant Hearts for me.

494

: 00:27:56

It's just it's also very cool in that

It's just one of those games that I've

495

: 00:28:00

had a few of these that really take

me out of my comfort zone You know,

496

: 00:28:03

there's a theory that if you're good

at comedy, you're also gonna be good at

497

: 00:28:06

you know At drama, if you push yourself

because they're, they're two sides of

498

: 00:28:10

that same coin, that's mostly true.

499

: 00:28:14

Although I like, I like doing

comedy because it's easier.

500

: 00:28:17

Value arts pushed me out of my comfort

zone, and I'm grateful for that.

501

: 00:28:20

I'm really excited that you've given

us a little bit of the secret sauce

502

: 00:28:23

because I want game stories to be.

503

: 00:28:26

better in general.

504

: 00:28:28

And I hope people, you know,

caught on to that starting at the

505

: 00:28:31

end and working backwards bit.

506

: 00:28:33

I would love to hear more about the kinds

of rules, structures, tools, and processes

507

: 00:28:41

that you use to, to craft stories that you

think are effective for crafting stories.

508

: 00:28:46

You know, I have my process that

I, I think works for me and I have

509

: 00:28:51

seen it work for, for my clients.

510

: 00:28:54

And that is, you know, we, we, we

gotta make sure that we have a story.

511

: 00:28:58

A lot of my clients come to me with, An

idea for a story or a story summary, and

512

: 00:29:05

they confuse that with having a story.

513

: 00:29:07

So they contact me and we may start

working together and they say,

514

: 00:29:11

okay, well, we have a story and the

story is there's this guy and he,

515

: 00:29:17

you know, is like a dragon tamer.

516

: 00:29:19

And then a bunch of stuff happens

and then he, uh, fights this.

517

: 00:29:24

This bad guy who are not sure is what

his name is, and then he dies and he

518

: 00:29:29

comes back as a ghost, but then he kills

the bad guy and they're both ghosts

519

: 00:29:33

and, uh, you know, something like that.

520

: 00:29:37

So you often say, where can I preorder?

521

: 00:29:40

You often say something, you

know, say, Hey, that's a great,

522

: 00:29:44

we've got a great start here.

523

: 00:29:45

You have kind of an idea.

524

: 00:29:47

For a story, you have some direction here,

but you don't, you don't, in my mind,

525

: 00:29:51

you don't really have a story, right?

526

: 00:29:52

We don't have a beginning

and a middle and an end.

527

: 00:29:54

In order to start, I just use something.

528

: 00:29:57

There's a book called Invisible

Ink by Brian McDonald.

529

: 00:30:00

That's just a great book for any

writer, uh, to pick up and read

530

: 00:30:05

has this thing where he calls it

seven easy steps to a better story.

531

: 00:30:08

And it's a, it's a way

to both simplify, right?

532

: 00:30:11

What you have, but also give

it, give it some real structure.

533

: 00:30:14

And so he applies these seven steps.

534

: 00:30:17

He says, okay, you finish

these, these seven sentences,

535

: 00:30:21

basically once upon a time blank.

536

: 00:30:24

Okay.

537

: 00:30:24

Once upon a time you had a

dragon tamer and every day blank.

538

: 00:30:29

Okay.

539

: 00:30:29

Every day he went about his business

trading dragons until one day.

540

: 00:30:33

Uh, the beginning of act two.

541

: 00:30:35

Right.

542

: 00:30:36

This, I guess the inciting incident maybe

or something until one day blank something

543

: 00:30:40

happened and because of this Blank, right

and he throws in the she throws us in a

544

: 00:30:46

second time and because of this blank and

you can keep doing that right, that's the

545

: 00:30:51

sort of the meat of your story or kind

of rising action For a video game, we go

546

: 00:30:57

on maybe like, and because of this blank,

and because of that blank, and because of

547

: 00:31:01

that blank, and we just keep going, maybe,

until finally, and you know, we're warming

548

: 00:31:07

up to our resolution, until finally,

blank, and ever since that day, this is

549

: 00:31:12

our resolution, you know, blank, finish

the sentence, if I'd have been smart, I

550

: 00:31:15

would have come up with like a really cool

example for you, I actually have maybe

551

: 00:31:18

kind of an example that I use in those

YouTube videos, but anyway, maybe you get

552

: 00:31:23

the idea, I'll So you've got these, these

seven easy steps towards simplifying your

553

: 00:31:30

story and lending it some structure, you

know, if you can fill in those blanks

554

: 00:31:35

adequately, you've got yourself a story,

and from there, what I would normally

555

: 00:31:40

do is then expand on that to add more

detail where necessary until I have it.

556

: 00:31:45

Thank you.

557

: 00:31:46

A treatment I can be proud of and

that, you know, everybody at the

558

: 00:31:52

development studio can read it.

559

: 00:31:55

And look at it and realize, yes, this

is our story and have confidence in it

560

: 00:32:00

and you can give it to any stakeholder

and they can clearly and quickly

561

: 00:32:03

see, you know, what the story is and

what it's about as a brief aside.

562

: 00:32:07

It's amazing.

563

: 00:32:09

I have discovered I've seen firsthand.

564

: 00:32:11

It's amazing how much morale

hangs on having a good story.

565

: 00:32:18

You know, when you have a developer who's

working on a game that that purports to

566

: 00:32:22

tell a good story, and if that story is

a mess that really, you know, some people

567

: 00:32:29

think, oh, it's just a small thing.

568

: 00:32:30

It's just a small aspect of the game.

569

: 00:32:32

It's not that big a deal.

570

: 00:32:34

It really has an effect

on the morale of the team.

571

: 00:32:38

And I've just seen this firsthand

when you come in and you help them

572

: 00:32:40

straighten it out and organize their

thoughts and, and lend their stories,

573

: 00:32:44

some real structure and, you know,

word gets out to the rest of the team.

574

: 00:32:48

It's, it's a huge confidence boost.

575

: 00:32:50

And I think part of that is people then

have just a much better understanding

576

: 00:32:54

of why they're creating assets.

577

: 00:32:56

Why they're making some of these

sound effects, why, what this level

578

: 00:33:00

should be, how they can help to tell

the story, how they can participate

579

: 00:33:05

so that everything they do somehow

helps to push the story along.

580

: 00:33:09

So we work with the treatment and so

do we, do we tell it, we decide, okay,

581

: 00:33:13

we have a real story, not just a vague

idea for a story, but a real story and

582

: 00:33:18

that's great, but it's, it's, it's a

limited value to us until we can take,

583

: 00:33:24

uh, you know, the game's mechanics.

584

: 00:33:26

And we can draw out, you know, a

map on how to tell this, the story.

585

: 00:33:31

And so that's when we got, just getting

back this middle phase, which I call

586

: 00:33:35

it, which I consider to be narrative

design, which is essentially now taking

587

: 00:33:40

the mechanics of this game, um, which

may include cinemas or, you know, uh,

588

: 00:33:45

you know, cinema would be like a feature

of the game and plotting it all out

589

: 00:33:49

step by step from end to beginning.

590

: 00:33:52

In a flowchart form, including all your

branching and all your stuff like that.

591

: 00:33:55

So all your, your major interactive,

non interactive scenes are known,

592

: 00:34:00

identified, have a purpose.

593

: 00:34:02

Like how are you going to tell the

story you've just made a treatment

594

: 00:34:05

for with the game mechanics

that you actually have on hand?

595

: 00:34:09

What's the player going to do?

596

: 00:34:10

Step by step by step by step all

the way to the end of the game.

597

: 00:34:15

And how, exactly how and when

Is that story going to be

598

: 00:34:19

told and be pushed forward?

599

: 00:34:20

It's kind of a heavy lifting, you

know, it's, it's, it's, it's where

600

: 00:34:24

game narrative designers shine and, and

writers, I think from other, uh, other

601

: 00:34:29

mediums struggle because if they're not,

if they're not used to doing this part

602

: 00:34:34

afterwards, all what you have left is.

603

: 00:34:36

Full knowledge of where, how,

and when all your writing needs

604

: 00:34:41

to take place for this game.

605

: 00:34:43

And then you just, you, the writers can

then go off and write dialogue while

606

: 00:34:46

the rest of the team has this map.

607

: 00:34:49

I can start creating the assets

and features necessary to ship it.

608

: 00:34:53

That is incredibly useful information

about the flowchart, about these

609

: 00:34:57

questions, and about that kind

of narrative design process.

610

: 00:35:01

One question I have about

this, because I feel, I feel

611

: 00:35:03

like this is the secret sauce.

612

: 00:35:05

And I'm all about the secret sauce.

613

: 00:35:06

With the kind of whiteboarding

method, you work backwards.

614

: 00:35:10

And with this invisible ink Brian McDonald

method, it sounds like you work forwards.

615

: 00:35:16

How does that play out for you?

616

: 00:35:17

I mean, that's a good point.

617

: 00:35:18

I think even with the story

treatment, you could start with

618

: 00:35:23

the ending and work backwards.

619

: 00:35:25

But I guess just what's more important

is not, is not the, the order, uh,

620

: 00:35:30

or the sequence in which you fill

in all those sentences, right?

621

: 00:35:33

It's just that you need

to have an answer there.

622

: 00:35:36

Once upon a time, what, what, what was

going on and every day, what, until one

623

: 00:35:41

day, well, what, what, what happened?

624

: 00:35:43

Maybe we, we tend to

just think of in our DNA.

625

: 00:35:45

We just tend to think of stories, you

know, you think of the beginning first

626

: 00:35:49

and you work your way towards the end.

627

: 00:35:50

That's just how we're used to telling

stories or hearing stories, but

628

: 00:35:53

just what matters is that you can.

629

: 00:35:55

Fill in those blanks.

630

: 00:35:57

I love the idea of starting

with the end because one video

631

: 00:36:00

game endings are so often just

incredibly bad and unsatisfying.

632

: 00:36:04

No one thinks you're gonna get there.

633

: 00:36:06

Like no one thinks you're gonna , like

hardly anybody finishes, right?

634

: 00:36:09

Like they don't, there oftentimes,

uh, really is, is sometimes the

635

: 00:36:14

mindset is, oh, well, who cares?

636

: 00:36:15

No one's gonna get that far.

637

: 00:36:16

But the other thing is when you know the

ending, I think as a creator, your control

638

: 00:36:20

now over the experience is much greater.

639

: 00:36:23

You know, when you're teasing

and playing and prodding and

640

: 00:36:26

foreshadowing and misleading.

641

: 00:36:27

It is a map, right?

642

: 00:36:28

This flowchart is a map.

643

: 00:36:30

And like with, with, you know, when

you draw up a map, you know, you

644

: 00:36:34

need to know where you're going.

645

: 00:36:36

You tell your phone, Hey, I'm going to

this address and your phone Brings up

646

: 00:36:41

the map and tells you the best way to

get there from where you are Or the most

647

: 00:36:46

interesting way or the way with the least

traffic or you know Or whatever it is.

648

: 00:36:51

You got to know where you're going in

order to just steer the ship there Now

649

: 00:36:55

that we've solved all our listeners

story planning problems forever and ever.

650

: 00:37:01

Welcome What are some of

the pitfalls along the way?

651

: 00:37:05

What are some of the mistakes that

you know, you're seeing in games all

652

: 00:37:08

the time that you're like, ah, I don't

know Stop, whatever, X, Y, and Z.

653

: 00:37:13

I'm big now on character development.

654

: 00:37:17

And again, it is something that we

give the least amount of thought to.

655

: 00:37:21

I hear this from people

who work at studios.

656

: 00:37:24

You know, I, I, the other day I was

talking to a colleague who said,

657

: 00:37:28

you know, I, on the spur of the

moment, wrote up a one page character

658

: 00:37:33

description for this important character.

659

: 00:37:36

And his supervisor was not happy.

660

: 00:37:40

Like he he'd wasted time.

661

: 00:37:42

And it's just crazy because I guarantee if

we sat down with that person and I asked

662

: 00:37:46

them about their favorite films, you know,

so much work, George Lucas did so much

663

: 00:37:52

work on star Wars on these characters,

you know, imagine if you were just, you

664

: 00:37:56

know, envisioning, if he was envisioning

the Darth Vader character and, and it

665

: 00:38:00

was, you know, was like, Hey, uh, okay.

666

: 00:38:03

So what's Darth Vader's background?

667

: 00:38:05

How is he related?

668

: 00:38:06

You know, What's his relationship

to these other characters?

669

: 00:38:09

Hey, don't worry about it.

670

: 00:38:09

Just make him look cool.

671

: 00:38:10

It doesn't matter.

672

: 00:38:11

Hurry up.

673

: 00:38:11

Go.

674

: 00:38:12

You know, I actually think we know what

you would get and you'd get Darth Maul.

675

: 00:38:16

Yeah, you just, it just, you know,

and I guarantee he's a star Wars fan.

676

: 00:38:21

I'm obsessed with this movie.

677

: 00:38:22

There's very few movies I'll watch over

and over again, but no country for old

678

: 00:38:26

men I've seen like 20 times really.

679

: 00:38:29

And I think it's.

680

: 00:38:30

Uh, you know, you can look at the way

the Coen brothers draw characters.

681

: 00:38:36

And if you're cynical, you can say

to yourself, you know, there's just

682

: 00:38:39

a lot of forced quirkiness here.

683

: 00:38:41

But I, I don't think that's it.

684

: 00:38:43

I think like they take the time even to

make like the lead characters constantly

685

: 00:38:48

checking in and out of hotels, right.

686

: 00:38:50

In this movie.

687

: 00:38:52

And they take the time to even make

the hotel clerks kind of interesting.

688

: 00:38:57

And I think it's because in their mind,

this hotel clerk is not an amalgam

689

: 00:39:01

of every hotel clerk in the world.

690

: 00:39:04

It's, it's not a summary of a hotel clerk.

691

: 00:39:07

It's an individual person.

692

: 00:39:10

It's an individual person who's maybe

cranky or maybe, you know, high, or maybe

693

: 00:39:16

they're, you know, they're, they're,

they're, they're an individual person.

694

: 00:39:22

And so all of these

interactions are interesting.

695

: 00:39:24

And of course the main characters

are extremely well thought out.

696

: 00:39:28

Almost nobody does this in games, there's

just, I think, a handful of developers

697

: 00:39:32

that take the time to decide who are

these characters, and, and, you know,

698

: 00:39:39

if we get to know these characters,

what, what do, you know, what do we,

699

: 00:39:43

what would we discover about them?

700

: 00:39:45

What makes them interesting and rare?

701

: 00:39:47

There's, um, I don't know if you've

ever heard this, but I read this in a,

702

: 00:39:51

in a, I have a lot of books on writing

and things and they talk about, I think

703

: 00:39:56

Dustin Hoffman, when he was a young actor

was one of the fruit of the loom guys.

704

: 00:40:02

And apparently Dustin Hoffman, you know,

he, he, he can be a bit of a ball breaker.

705

: 00:40:07

I think even, even back then with

directors and things, and, and,

706

: 00:40:10

and he was like, you know, I'm

not just oranges, not oranges.

707

: 00:40:19

I am a specific orange.

708

: 00:40:21

I am a singular orange.

709

: 00:40:25

And what is a, what, what is this

orange, this particular orange?

710

: 00:40:29

What are they about?

711

: 00:40:30

And we don't really do that in games.

712

: 00:40:32

We just, you know, if you're a space

Marine, you, you, you know, but.

713

: 00:40:35

You're just every space

Marine we've ever seen before.

714

: 00:40:38

And we're just these top of the mind

cliches are, are what we get most often.

715

: 00:40:44

I think that's one of the things

that is so great about, you know, the

716

: 00:40:47

work of someone like Tim Schafer is

you do feel that all the characters

717

: 00:40:52

have been, you know, labored

over and it's the craftsmanship.

718

: 00:40:56

Peace, right?

719

: 00:40:56

Like, the characters aren't

just serving a purpose.

720

: 00:41:00

They're, they're also,

like you said, individuals.

721

: 00:41:03

They're created in their own right.

722

: 00:41:05

And I, I think the, you know, to

your point with Tim Schafer, I

723

: 00:41:09

recall, you know, Psychonauts,

his first game, Double Fine Maid.

724

: 00:41:12

Love that game.

725

: 00:41:14

Adore it.

726

: 00:41:15

I loved it as well.

727

: 00:41:17

And I remember this story.

728

: 00:41:19

As he was preparing for this

game and doing research, uh,

729

: 00:41:22

Friendster was still a thing.

730

: 00:41:24

I remember this story too, yeah.

731

: 00:41:27

So he, he made Friendster profiles

for all of his characters, major

732

: 00:41:31

characters, minor characters, because

he wanted to see which one of them,

733

: 00:41:36

which, which ones would get along with

each other, which ones would not, uh,

734

: 00:41:41

how they might react to one another.

735

: 00:41:43

You know, who does that?

736

: 00:41:44

You know, I mean, who does that?

737

: 00:41:46

Who takes the time to do that?

738

: 00:41:47

Not, not for many people, but I'm sure

it contributed to that game being great.

739

: 00:41:52

And then just in general, you know,

not a lot of time for research.

740

: 00:41:56

I mean, people work at studios or

under the gun and, and have really

741

: 00:42:01

tight deadlines and it's really

hard and they don't have the luxury

742

: 00:42:05

or the time to do the research

necessary to make their dialogue.

743

: 00:42:10

Uh, uh, sound, you know, as

authentic maybe as it could be.

744

: 00:42:15

Um, and then it's not a problem with every

studio or every writer at by any means

745

: 00:42:20

that there is good, good stuff out there.

746

: 00:42:21

Um, indie studios have, you know,

the, the, the fire watch was great

747

: 00:42:26

and that's, um, I think Sean Vanneman,

you know, is a telltale alumni.

748

: 00:42:31

Story and the dialogue in that

game was, was pretty great.

749

: 00:42:34

And, uh, you know, being independent,

he could take the time to, uh, do the

750

: 00:42:38

research necessary to, to make it great.

751

: 00:42:41

So there's, you know, poor

character development, not a lot

752

: 00:42:44

of time given over to research.

753

: 00:42:46

You know, research is

maybe considered a luxury.

754

: 00:42:49

You know, I had this experience recently.

755

: 00:42:51

I was working on a game

with a culinary theme.

756

: 00:42:54

And I had done a rev of dialogue on maybe

like a hundred different quests, you

757

: 00:43:02

know, and it's one of these games where

the, where the, where, you know, the

758

: 00:43:05

dialogue, you have an intro to the quest,

you have an outro in between, maybe you

759

: 00:43:12

have a few reminders of what the player

should be doing to solve this quest.

760

: 00:43:15

But we're also trying to tell a

good story, but my first rev of

761

: 00:43:20

this dialogue was very much like,

you know, Hey, how's it going?

762

: 00:43:25

Boy, we need to bake a hundred pies today.

763

: 00:43:28

Uh, I think there's a pie club is

coming to the restaurant and, uh, you

764

: 00:43:34

know, we got to make a hundred pies

because, you know, the pie club is,

765

: 00:43:38

you know, wants a lot of pies and

then, and then we try to tack on a

766

: 00:43:41

little bit of like story development or

character development on, on top of this.

767

: 00:43:45

Right.

768

: 00:43:46

And when I prepared for my second rev, I,

I, you know, wasn't happy with it at all.

769

: 00:43:53

And I told these guys, I'm like, look.

770

: 00:43:56

In this game, the player

plays a chef, right?

771

: 00:44:01

It's your job.

772

: 00:44:02

You're a chef.

773

: 00:44:03

And what do chefs do when

they come to a restaurant?

774

: 00:44:07

They cook.

775

: 00:44:09

They don't need any additional

justification for it.

776

: 00:44:11

It's already their job.

777

: 00:44:13

What do chefs talk about or

cooks talk about at work?

778

: 00:44:15

They don't sit there and talk

about what they're doing.

779

: 00:44:19

The entire time I'm chopping a carrot.

780

: 00:44:21

Now I'm boiling some soup.

781

: 00:44:23

They talk about their relationships.

782

: 00:44:26

They, they get pissed at each other.

783

: 00:44:29

They, you know, they, uh, they complain,

you know, they bitch about their

784

: 00:44:33

employers or what, I mean, they're,

you know, they're, they're human.

785

: 00:44:39

You know, and we don't need to

explain why they're making pies.

786

: 00:44:41

They make pies cause

you're a freaking chef.

787

: 00:44:44

And, um, I call it, you know,

mission itis where it's like, you

788

: 00:44:48

know, everything's really focused.

789

: 00:44:50

I hate to pick on games

and writing is hard.

790

: 00:44:54

There's this game that came out.

791

: 00:44:55

It's a really fun game.

792

: 00:44:56

I almost finished it called a dying light.

793

: 00:44:59

I really enjoyed it, but I

didn't enjoy the story very much.

794

: 00:45:02

The story literally has a guy, literally

you drop out of a plane and land in

795

: 00:45:07

the middle of the city and, uh, almost

immediately, even though you're like

796

: 00:45:12

a white guy who just landed in like

this, this, uh, city in the middle east

797

: 00:45:17

where everyone is Arabic, you just drop

out of the sky and almost immediately

798

: 00:45:22

you go to, you know, to where some

people are and you're like, Oh, my God.

799

: 00:45:26

Hey man, let me do some missions.

800

: 00:45:28

I'm good at missions.

801

: 00:45:29

Come on, give me a mission.

802

: 00:45:30

Come on, let's go, let's

go, let's do a mission.

803

: 00:45:32

And you can tell this whole game is

written around, like, what it is you

804

: 00:45:37

need to be doing, like, at that moment.

805

: 00:45:39

It's like, you know, these convoluted,

uh, reasons why you need to go and

806

: 00:45:46

fix this satellite dish, or kill this

person, or wipe out these zombies.

807

: 00:45:51

It's really boring.

808

: 00:45:53

And I just kind of think like, you know,

you, you don't need to do all this.

809

: 00:45:57

Just the guy's job is, uh,

whatever, you know, he's, he's,

810

: 00:46:01

he's a, uh, uh, he, he's a runner.

811

: 00:46:03

He's a, he's an, you

know, he has a job, right.

812

: 00:46:08

And the job is justification enough for,

for doing all the shit that he does.

813

: 00:46:13

And, and what we should

be talking about is stuff.

814

: 00:46:16

That's a lot more interesting.

815

: 00:46:17

You know, yes, you have goals, go,

go blow this up, go set the something

816

: 00:46:22

on fire, go, you know, go shoot

these zombies, but most of what

817

: 00:46:28

we're talking about should be stuff.

818

: 00:46:29

That's just a lot more interesting.

819

: 00:46:31

But instead we kind of spend most of the

game talking about like what you should

820

: 00:46:35

be doing for your job You know before

during while you're doing it again with

821

: 00:46:40

some more character development and

some more thought maybe we can avoid

822

: 00:46:44

That kind of a trap and it's not easy.

823

: 00:46:47

My sympathies are with every game

writer in the world How do you

824

: 00:46:52

make you know clicking on pies or?

825

: 00:46:54

Or growing crops about betrayal and love.

826

: 00:46:59

And that's just the thing.

827

: 00:47:01

Like, you know, if you're playing like one

of these farm simulating games, it's like,

828

: 00:47:05

okay, it's enough to say you're a farmer.

829

: 00:47:07

You don't, we don't need a story

behind why I'm watering my crops.

830

: 00:47:13

You're a farmer.

831

: 00:47:14

It's what you do.

832

: 00:47:15

And if you don't water them, they'll die.

833

: 00:47:16

You know, the story should be

about who you're dealing with.

834

: 00:47:19

Daughter is running off with, or,

you know, you're growing, you're

835

: 00:47:24

growing a bouquet for your daughter's

wedding or the bank that's trying to,

836

: 00:47:29

you know, Uh, repossess your farm.

837

: 00:47:31

Something, something more interesting.

838

: 00:47:33

I have had so much experience,

uh, struggling with that.

839

: 00:47:36

Uh, trying to, trying to

make great stories out of

840

: 00:47:39

farming, uh, on Frontierville.

841

: 00:47:42

And I've worked on some

of those games too.

842

: 00:47:44

And so I, I.

843

: 00:47:46

And I think we did a

pretty good job, actually.

844

: 00:47:48

I think that the team was very good at it.

845

: 00:47:50

It can be done.

846

: 00:47:50

Any other things you want

to mention about pitfalls?

847

: 00:47:53

Part of my advice is,

is be, you know, dogged.

848

: 00:47:56

There are times when I'm asked to do,

you know, a writing task that maybe, On

849

: 00:48:01

the, on the onset seems like less than

glamorous, uh, writing barks or voice

850

: 00:48:05

calls, maybe, you know, I've been in

this position a lot where it's like,

851

: 00:48:09

okay, I need to have 15 things for this

player to say, they say we're, I've

852

: 00:48:14

worked on a bowling game before, uh, 15

things, 20 things for this player to say

853

: 00:48:19

when they roll a gutter ball and they

need to be funny and they need to be

854

: 00:48:23

short and they need to be in character.

855

: 00:48:26

Okay.

856

: 00:48:27

Cause this is, this character is

like a unique character and that's

857

: 00:48:30

really hard, you know, right.

858

: 00:48:32

One liners that are short and funny

and have personality and communicate

859

: 00:48:37

that I've rolled a gutter ball.

860

: 00:48:40

And so I, I think what I see writers

doing is you just, you, you, you, you.

861

: 00:48:46

You bang your head on the wall trying

to come up with 20 original things and

862

: 00:48:50

eventually your, your soul leaves your

body and, and the last, you know, 10

863

: 00:48:55

or 12 are just, uh, are not your best

writing and I totally understand that.

864

: 00:49:01

And, and this is where some of my

obsessive compulsive tendencies, uh,

865

: 00:49:05

are help me is that I will, sometimes

I will stare at that empty, uh, cell in

866

: 00:49:12

Excel, uh, for 40 minutes if I have to.

867

: 00:49:15

But I want to make sure that all 20

of them are short and are funny and

868

: 00:49:20

do communicate what they have to

communicate and do have personality.

869

: 00:49:25

If it takes me two or three hours, then

that's what sometimes what I'll do.

870

: 00:49:32

And sometimes it's just,

it just takes time.

871

: 00:49:34

It just takes.

872

: 00:49:36

You know, rolling up your sleeves

and, uh, getting, getting dirty, you

873

: 00:49:41

know, or getting under the hood or

whatever it, it just, sometimes it's

874

: 00:49:44

just, uh, it just takes a lot of time.

875

: 00:49:48

And, um, but when, when you do 20 of

those and they are good and they are

876

: 00:49:52

funny, it's a great reward, you know,

it's, it's to hear them in the game

877

: 00:49:56

and be proud of them and have the rest

of the team be excited about what you

878

: 00:50:00

did and, you know, be dogged sometimes.

879

: 00:50:03

I mean, work, you know, making

games cause you can also get into

880

: 00:50:06

missionitis and sometimes instead

of just trying to finish that list,

881

: 00:50:09

you got to take a break, come back.

882

: 00:50:11

We had Lev Chepelsky on the show.

883

: 00:50:13

One of the stories he shared

was working on Hot Shots Golf.

884

: 00:50:16

And coming up with, they had like a team

to do just these tiny little lines for

885

: 00:50:21

like hitting a great shot or a bad shot.

886

: 00:50:23

And you know, you never

know what's going to hit.

887

: 00:50:25

It turns out that like they had,

they had one of the guys, when you

888

: 00:50:27

hit a great shot, go cream cheese.

889

: 00:50:31

That was like one of the most

memorable things in the game.

890

: 00:50:34

Yeah, that could happen.

891

: 00:50:35

I'm sometimes surprised.

892

: 00:50:37

By, by what hits or, or, or, or what

doesn't with, with barks and voice calls

893

: 00:50:43

more often than not, I'm not surprised.

894

: 00:50:44

Pretty good sense of when you, you

know, turn something in, you know,

895

: 00:50:49

what's good and what maybe could

be better, but, uh, it's always,

896

: 00:50:54

it's always, it's always a pleasant

surprise when that, when that happens.

897

: 00:50:56

Yeah.

898

: 00:50:56

I think that speaks to your, your

craftsmanship and your, your experience.

899

: 00:51:01

I hope so.

900

: 00:51:01

Experience for sure.

901

: 00:51:03

You know, it's hard to get good

at the craft of game writing.

902

: 00:51:05

Like I said, there are some, some,

some universities and things that.

903

: 00:51:09

You can go to and, and learn, you

know, like USC or, or other places.

904

: 00:51:14

But, uh, we don't have a hundred years

of history and, and, uh, from which

905

: 00:51:20

to draw from, like film and, and we

don't, you know, there are some, I,

906

: 00:51:24

I haven't read every book on game

writing and I have a feeling there

907

: 00:51:26

are some, maybe a few good, a few good

ones out there, but we don't have.

908

: 00:51:31

Save the cat or that can

just kind of get you started.

909

: 00:51:34

And, uh, it's, it's just hard.

910

: 00:51:36

I'm, I'm, again, I'm lucky to have

worked on dozens of games because

911

: 00:51:39

not that many people get that chance.

912

: 00:51:42

And it's also what makes it so

exciting to be in this field, because

913

: 00:51:45

we're still defining what it is.

914

: 00:51:47

That is.

915

: 00:51:48

Yeah.

916

: 00:51:48

On the early onset of games

is pretty fascinating.

917

: 00:51:52

There's still people like some of

the earliest people to, to, to make

918

: 00:51:55

games at all are still making games.

919

: 00:51:58

Like there's still five and they're

still making games and maybe, maybe not

920

: 00:52:02

the very first generation, but certainly

the, the, if we, there is a second

921

: 00:52:07

wave of game creators, those guys are,

are, are still making games right now.

922

: 00:52:12

You can, you can call

them on the phone or.

923

: 00:52:14

Or tweeted them and, and they're still,

they're still here and, and we're already,

924

: 00:52:19

and we're already getting into VR.

925

: 00:52:20

It's just amazing, you know,

or just how fast this industry

926

: 00:52:24

changes and for how new it is.

927

: 00:52:27

It's a, it's mind boggling.

928

: 00:52:29

I have to tune it out.

929

: 00:52:30

You know, I have to tune it out.

930

: 00:52:32

I, I, I'm not big on technology.

931

: 00:52:35

I just had to kind of focus on my job

and, uh, let other people figure out

932

: 00:52:41

how VR Change storytelling forever.

933

: 00:52:45

Someone else is going to figure that out

and I'll just, I'll ride their coattails.

934

: 00:52:50

And all you got to do is

subscribe to Playmakers.

935

: 00:52:53

Uh, yeah.

936

: 00:52:54

And we'll, we'll keep

you up to date on it.

937

: 00:52:55

Perfect.

938

: 00:52:56

Thank you.

939

: 00:52:56

Thanks so much for coming on the show.

940

: 00:52:58

It's been great.

941

: 00:52:59

I hope so.

942

: 00:52:59

And again, my sympathies and hats off

to anyone out there working in games,

943

: 00:53:04

whether you've been doing it forever,

or if you're brand new can always feel

944

: 00:53:07

free to tweet at me and I'm, I'm always

happy to help anybody that I can help.

945

: 00:53:11

And what's your Twitter handle?

946

: 00:53:13

At Ed Connell, E D K U E H N E L.

947

: 00:53:17

My Twitter name is Danforth Mantooth.

948

: 00:53:20

That's me.

949

: 00:53:21

Excellent.

950

: 00:53:21

Well, thanks so much, Ed.

951

: 00:53:23

Take it easy.

952

: 00:53:25

I hope you found the interview

informative and useful.

953

: 00:53:28

If you are interested in crafting

great stories, I'm sure you did.

954

: 00:53:32

If you head to playmakerspodcast.

955

: 00:53:34

com, you'll find the blog post with All

the information of all the resources

956

: 00:53:39

that we talked about including how to

get in touch with Ed and that's where

957

: 00:53:43

you can download the cheat sheet that

has the processes that Ed outlined for

958

: 00:53:49

creating great narratives in your game.

959

: 00:53:51

Don't forget to subscribe so

you don't miss the next episode.

960

: 00:53:55

That's all for this episode of PlayMakers.

961

: 00:53:58

See you in episode 7.

962

: 00:54:00

Thanks for being a loyal

listener to PlayMakers.