Episode 7

Game Design as a Way of Being, with Eric Zimmerman

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Eric Zimmerman is a game designer the co-author of four books including Rules of Play with Katie Salen, which was published in November 2004. Eric Zimmerman has written at least 24 essays and white-papers since 1996, mostly pertaining to game development from an academic standpoint. He's currently a founding faculty at the NYU Game Center. Eric Zimmerman is deeply embedded in New York Game scene. Having originally cofounded Gamelab, the studio that went out to create Diner Dash. In this episode, Eric explains how he designed Gamelab to be a place where people who worked there felt ownership and authorship of the intellectual property that they were creating. We also talk about the value of game design "frameworks" and the art of game design as a way of being in the world. Visit www.playmakerspodcast.com to get access to the full blog post for this episode and much more!

Transcript
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You know what those swoopy sounds mean.

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You're listening to Playmakers.

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I'm your host, Jordan Blackman,

and on every episode, I interview

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a game industry legend or leader

or luminary or some other L word.

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And I go deep with them on a

subject of their expertise.

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This week, Eric Zimmerman, CEO and

co founder of GameLab, they created

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the rather iconic Diner Dash.

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He teaches at NYU.

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We get into it on this.

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Stay tuned.

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Okay.

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You're not really

supposed to do lip smacks.

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That's not, that's not

good podcast etiquette.

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But we're keeping it in.

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We're doing it live.

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This is episode seven of PlayMakers.

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And if you don't know by now,

I'm your host, Jordan Blackman.

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And on every episode, you know what I do.

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I interview someone who is a playmaker.

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is an expert in the game

industry, and I learn from them.

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And by subscribing, you

learn along with me.

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This week, we have the great teacher

and professor and game designer above

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all, Eric Zimmerman, who's taught at

MIT, the University of Texas, Parsons

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School of Design, NYU, Rhode Island

School of Design, School of Visual Arts.

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And also, he created GameLab,

the groundbreaking Indie ish

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studio that created Diner Dash.

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Eric is deeply embedded in

the New York game scene.

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We talk about that.

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We talk about the story of Gamelab and

what it was like to be a part of that

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scene and actually to design that company.

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Uh, we talk about design as

a way of life in this episode

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and what that means to Eric.

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You know, I, I, on this show, a

big part of what I do is I bring on

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people and ask them for tips, tricks,

tools, tactics, you know, frameworks,

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processes, things that are going to

help you get better at what you do.

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Eric pushed back on that a little

bit and said, Hey, you know what?

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It's not really about any of that stuff.

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It's about being a certain way

in the world as a designer.

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So we talk about that a little bit.

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And he also explains how he designed

Gamelab to be a place where the people

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who worked there felt ownership and

felt authorship of the intellectual

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property that they were creating.

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How did he make a studio where

people were able to collaborate?

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and feel like they had agency, but

didn't feel territorial and defensive.

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So all that is in this episode

in my interview with Eric.

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And gosh, I like immediately as we

were ending the interview, I was like,

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I want to interview this guy again.

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So, um, enjoy the interview and

I will see you on the other side.

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Thanks for coming on the show, Eric.

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Oh, I'm really happy to be here.

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I'm always happy to talk about games.

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I was really interested in having you

on the show because you've done so much

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work both with indies and in academia.

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And I'm kind of curious for our audience

of people who are mostly indie developers

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or corporate developers or students, how

would you kind of contextualize the value

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of the academic game world for that group?

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Well, it's kind of funny the

way I ended up in academia.

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My parents are professors.

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So I do have to say, it's a

little bit my cultural background.

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I grew up in a family as a campus

brat in Bloomington, Indiana.

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My parents taught art education there.

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But, I'll also say that coming of

age in the industry, in New York

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City, it's a very particular place.

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New York has never had a big triple A

production studio where people worked.

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And I started in the game

industry in the early 90s.

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And it was really in the CD ROM

era, but again, there weren't major

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development studios in New York City.

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There was never, you know,

an Ubisoft or an Origin or

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something like that in New York.

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I think of Gameloft as

like the closest thing.

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Yeah, but even they were doing

kind of mobile and online games.

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And so there's been a lot of

sort of smaller platform work.

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There's been a lot of ad agencies.

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There's a lot of content

companies here like MTV and

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Fisher Price or Sesame Workshop.

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And there's been a lot of

kind of freelancers and people

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doing experimental work.

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So just to say that.

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New York City game designers for the

last 20 years or so, we've kind of

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had to cobble together our careers.

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And in a sense we were all sort

of indie before indie started.

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I remember writing an essay around like

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And this was like, you know, five years

or so before indie games became a thing.

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When we started our studio game lab in

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filmmaker of games, but we're trying

to figure out exactly what that means.

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In that sense, the idea of being in

a context where you had to do smaller

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projects that were often more experimental

or innovative, you were generating a lot

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of ideas and concepts, a lot of which

didn't get made, but that let you kind

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of work through a lot of design thinking

without having to be stuck on a big

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project for two or three years at once.

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It was an interesting place

to grow up at the same time.

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I started teaching right out of

graduate school at the interactive

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telecommunications program in NYU.

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I didn't go to school there, but I

started teaching there right after

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I got my MFA, literally the next,

that fall after I had graduated.

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Frank Lance and I started teaching a

game design class in the interactive

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telecommunications program, which

is sort of like a digital media

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design and production type program.

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It's been around a really long time, so

it sort of pioneered that whole idea.

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And I have to say that that had a

huge impact on game design, because

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when I started teaching, which was,

I don't, around like, something like

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93, 92, 93, when I started teaching,

might have been 93, 94, anyway, when

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I started teaching, game design as a

field didn't exist the way it did today.

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For example, I, I actually

was trained as a painter.

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As an undergraduate, I studied painting.

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And in painting, I got this

very formless training.

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They have like ways of teaching

you about line and color and

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composition and visual thinking.

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And there's kind of a

standard set of classes.

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Then there are people that are

overthrowing that there's kind

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of schools of thought about

what it means to be an artist.

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And obviously that changes from decade

to decade and century to century,

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but there's kind of like battling.

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Isms right like modernism and minimalism

and conceptual art and so all of these

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different schools of thought are kind

of battling it out today in games we

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have a little bit of that but back then

in the 90s it was more like people are

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just kind of working in the industry

and there wasn't the same kind of.

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Complicated discourse that bridge the

theory and practice of what we were doing

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there weren't like books coming out there

weren't conferences other than like very.

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Industry oriented, here's how

to make games, or here's the

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business of the industry thing.

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So it's not like today where you have

conferences on games and learning,

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or reaching a casual audience, or

academic conferences about, you know,

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games and players, or how games create

meaning and all these other things.

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So in a sense, we were really

discovering this field of game design.

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When I was a painter, I felt

like I was in a discipline.

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There's a disciplinary knowledge.

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There's a way of doing things.

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There's a language that's been

refined, at least since the when Vasari

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published Lies of the Artist and started

talking about what it means to be an

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artist and kind of establishing our

contemporary idea of art as a discipline.

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But in games, teaching with Frank Lance

at the Interactive Telecommunications

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Program, I was really figuring out what

it meant to be a game designer in the

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sense of, what is a game, how do they

function, how do we talk about what we're

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doing, how do we communicate to each

other, Whether you're a designer on a

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team of other developers, whether you're

talking to a publisher to get funding,

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whether you're talking to a journalist

to get them to write about your game.

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Also out of that I worked with

Katie Salen, uh, to write Rules of

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Play, which, which ended up being a

textbook about game design and it's

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still in heavy rotation these days.

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I've seen it on so many, I've seen it

on desk after desk in studios as well.

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To me, the book is really basic, but

we, you know, we were just trying

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to establish some basic concepts.

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So I guess here's what I'm trying

to say to answer your question,

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being an academic for me was never

like, I want to be a professor.

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It was just like, Oh, teaching a class

helps me understand what game design is.

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Writing this book helps me clarify

my thinking about what games are.

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So I, even though now I'm a full time

professor and I spend a lot of time

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teaching and talking to students, And

being part of this academic community, I

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still think of myself as basically a game

designer who does these other things.

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Who, who, who teaches classes in

order to be a better designer.

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When I teach in order to

hone my skills as a designer.

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Ya know, I study martial arts.

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And my Teacher, who's an amazing

Kung Fu practitioner, he teaches

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every day the beginner classes.

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And it's clear that for him,

teaching is part of his practice

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as a martial arts practitioner.

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And so for me, I also feel like teaching,

and this is my own personal approach to

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game design, there's a lot of valid ways

to be a designer, but for me, teaching,

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I kind of, Fold it into my practice.

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It helps me keep my sword sharp.

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Well, I totally get that.

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I taught for about three years that,

uh, the Bay Area video coalition,

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like beginning game design classes.

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And it was, it was

incredibly useful to me.

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I still, you know, as I transitioned

into mobile, I, I found that I leaned

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a lot on some of the frameworks that I

had taught students because it was a,

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it was a, it was much muddier waters.

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Um, wading into some of

those new territories.

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That's what I think what I'm excited about

learning from you is, with everything you

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know, and everything you've studied, and

everything you teach, what are the pieces

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that, that, um, you know, you feel like,

Ah, if more game developers understood,

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you know, MDA, or some other framework,

some other way of thinking about, about

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game design, this is a good opportunity

to discuss some of those ideas.

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You know what, it's funny, I used to

think that there was kind of nuggets

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of knowledge that people understood

and if they just got, if they just

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understood this one thing, if they

just understood, for example, The

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fundamentals of designing a choice for

a player, that you have to present it

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in a way, they have to get, understand

the outcome of what they did, and those

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choices are kind of the building blocks

of making a successful game experience.

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Like, things like that, these kind

of fundamentals and basic concepts.

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I guess I have a different feeling now.

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I guess my feeling is that being

a game designer is not about

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the knowledge that you have.

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And I, I think about design as kind

of like a way of being like a, kind of

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like a lifestyle choice or something.

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It's a way of seeing the world.

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It's a, it's kind of a set of practices

that you do a set of activities,

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some of which are making games, but

some of which are how you approach

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your personal relationships or, or

how you think about the environment

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that you live in or how you think

about the culture that you live in.

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I see young designers.

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Falling into certain traps or making

certain mistakes that I made, like,

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you know, thinking, oh, well, how do

I make a game that's as compelling as

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a film, you know, because I love films

and films are stories, and so why can't

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my games give me the pleasure of film,

and my answer to that is always, well,

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you never want to create one cultural

medium or form under the shadow of

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another one, so instead of saying, why

don't I have a game that tells a story

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as great as a film, you should say, Okay.

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What is a story that I could only

tell in a game that that leverages

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the unique characteristics of

games in order to tell a story?

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So that's the kind of thing I think

that you're talking about, like

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basic ideas and and maybe fundamental

concepts that would help designers.

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Oh, like, Basically avoid these

pitfalls that we fall into, or that

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a lot of people tend to fall into

when they first start making games.

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But see, now I'm not so sure.

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Because I used to think, okay, my job as

a teacher is to help people avoid those.

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But maybe my job as a teacher, and as also

a colleague, Is just to help people as

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they stumble through that landscape doing

things like overscoping a project and then

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having to realize oh my gosh everything

always takes longer and it's harder to

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communicate and I can't fix bugs in time

that I thought I would like that's just

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part of the process of learning how things

work and making conceptual mistakes like

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misunderstandings about narrative and

film maybe everybody has to work through

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those issues on their own and that's

just part of what it means to come up

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with As a designer or, you know, in fact,

maybe those misunderstandings result in

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amazing games because sometimes you have

veteran designers that have been around

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a long time and they make a crappy game

and sometimes you have some young buck

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who Stumbles into an amazing design and

they come out with something spectacular.

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So it's not really clear to me

that more knowledge is better.

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Sometimes knowledge is a bad thing.

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Sometimes sometimes you

can get so polluted.

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Oh my gosh, I'm never

gonna have a new idea.

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Everything's already been thought of or

or I need to, you know, think 10 times.

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Before I make a decision because so

many people have been in this space

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before and then it kind of kills off

the youthful vigor That might otherwise

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Propel your overconfidence into something

totally weird and experimental and

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fantastic So I yeah, I guess what

i'm trying to say is that I I used to

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think that I was providing knowledge

to help people overcome these problems.

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But now I think everyone

has their own journey.

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This is sounds, starting

to sound kind of new agey.

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I don't mean it like that.

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But everyone kind of

has their own journey.

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And um, and they have to, like,

everyone has to make their own mistakes.

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And I'm making games and playing

games and talking about games

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and teaching game design.

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As just part of the stuff

that I do as a designer.

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And my students are there as well.

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And often I don't think of

my students as students.

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I think of them as just other designers

and we're just doing stuff together.

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And a classroom is just a situation, just

like a development studio is a situation.

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There's different constraints.

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There's different commercial and legal

and, you know, bureaucratic constraints.

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At the same time in the end, there's just

problems being handed to us and we're

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solving them, you know, and I'm, I'm, I'm

the one who's just handing the problems to

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my students to solve, and that's all I'm

really there to do is hand them problems.

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And, and help them, not help them solve

them, but, but help them see how their

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solutions are working and not working.

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I don't know.

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I, I mean, it's, I guess it's a really

good question that you're asking.

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But I feel like if there were silver

bullets of game design knowledge,

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that, that we could just shoot into

people and suddenly they'd make

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great games and the world would

be full of great games, you know?

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Like, we don't think about

music that way, right?

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It's not like, Oh, musicians,

they're full of misconceptions.

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If they only understood really what music

is about, then we'd have great music.

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Well, but music is also about this.

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Something that's ineffable right that we

can't put into words and I think games

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are the same things we're talking about

pleasure Well, I think you're right that

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it's the same thing But I do think people

kind of make that same error of like,

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oh, what are the what are the licks?

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You know if I could just get like

these guitar licks or these particular

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drum fills, you know, that would make

me a musician Well, but what are the

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things that you think everyone is is?

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Leaving out, like, do you feel like,

what do you look around and say, Oh gosh,

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here are the mistakes everyone is making

that, that we should try and correct.

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I don't think there are silver bullets.

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And what I'm actually interested is I

want to, I want to go more deeply into

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what you mean by kind of like what it's

like to live as a designer and that

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perspective, because I think that's

super interesting, but I do think there

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are pieces of information that have a

big impact on me that I know have been

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really valuable in my own design work.

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For example, a kind of

like layers of the onion.

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of games has been super helpful for me and

kind of understanding way of looking at

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what a core loop is, why it's important,

you know, some ways that I can sort of

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like knock on it, tap on it from different

angles to see if it has qualities that,

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that tend to make core loops, you know,

effective, is that something that's

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going to be true in all contexts and

always know, and some of those ways

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that I like to look at a core loop.

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It seemed like they work better in like

a mobile context than they probably

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would, um, in other contexts and does,

and I think to your point, I think

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I've also got, I, I do can get stuck

in those things in, in ways where they

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don't necessarily apply, you know,

um, I can, I can enjoy Firewatch.

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Uh, even though, you know, the core

loop is, there might not be much to

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it, but that designer went and made

a statement with the way they're

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doing that, that game that worked.

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Right.

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My feeling is that there's sort

of an in between space where we

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can have these useful tools, we

just can't kind of worship them.

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And when you say tool, you mean like

a conceptual model or framework?

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That helps you think through a problem.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Well, I guess I will say this.

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I mean, the way that I teach and the way

that, that Frank and I started teaching

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the way that Katie Salen and I wrote

Rules of Play is basically, there's not

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one correct way of looking at games.

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And that, what we have to do is

we have to be able to Put on a

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whole series of different lenses

or frameworks or paradigms or

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whatever you want to call them.

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Katie and I call them schema.

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And Rules of Play is organized in,

here's some schema that are around

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logic and math and uh, cybernetic

feedback loops and probability and sort

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of more numerical, formal approaches.

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Then here's a whole bunch that

have to do with human experience.

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It have to do with emotion,

narrative, psychology, social

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interaction, pleasure, right?

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Addiction, things that, things that are,

here's a whole different set of schema.

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And then here's another one that

has to do with cultural context.

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Understanding how you're doing fits into

larger cultural landscapes or media.

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How, how it creates

communities of players.

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How you are falling into traps of

representation around gender or, or,

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um, Or ideology or things like that.

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So that idea of different

frameworks or different um, schema.

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Some of them formal, some of them more

experiential, some of them more cultural.

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That's the most important thing.

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That as designers we are flexible.

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And that you don't fall into just

using one lens to look at games.

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Because it might be that your game

is broken and players don't like it.

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Because, you know, Uh, you

know, it's a two person game and

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the first player always wins.

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Well, there's probably

a formal problem, right?

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Like, you need to rebalance, you need

to make the first player's turn half

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as powerful as a regular turn so they

don't get a leg up on the player, you

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know, turn two, et cetera, et cetera.

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But it may be that your players are just

not identifying with the main character.

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And that's a totally different,

maybe more of a cultural issue.

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Who's your audience?

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Who's your main character?

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How are they connected?

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How, you know, what's the

psychology of that or what's the

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narrative world you're creating?

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So, but those are totally

different ways of thinking.

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Now, to me, this is why I

love being a game designer.

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Because everything that you might study

or read about or think about is relevant.

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So you can study science and math

and logic, but you can also study

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storytelling and human psychology,

brain chemistry, if you want to.

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You know, you can be an

anthropologist or sociologist

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and think about culture that way.

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All of that is relevant to what we do.

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As game creators but the most important

thing is is to have our students be

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flexible and for designers to be flexible

and so if you're only looking at things

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from a formalist point of view if you're

only looking at things from a feminist

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point of view and you can't pop out of

that then I think the design does start

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to suffer so maybe this is the best

answer your question which is it's not

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one thing but it's many things it's the

ability to be many things and I sometimes

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:

see designers that have like a really

interesting It's almost like they decide,

347

:

okay, I've decided that, let's just use

an easy example, that, that, Everything

348

:

is wrong with the game industry.

349

:

It's about competition

and winning and goals.

350

:

And so I've decided that I'm in

the not games movement or walking

351

:

simulator or pure narrative,

interactive narrative experience.

352

:

And so down with games and games are bad.

353

:

I love that.

354

:

That's great.

355

:

Have a position, like

things, don't like things.

356

:

But then to say, Therefore, this is

how everyone should make their culture.

357

:

Therefore, this is the proper

model for what being a game is.

358

:

I call that design fundamentalism.

359

:

When you have your own point of

view, same thing can happen on

360

:

the formalist end of the scale.

361

:

People can say, Games are about

mechanics and balance, and, and

362

:

the content is just the surface.

363

:

And the only thing that really matters

is what's underneath, and, an eSports

364

:

player stops caring about the narrative

and the world, and all they care

365

:

about is balance and interaction,

et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

366

:

That's okay too, but then to say like,

that's obviously not, Every game or

367

:

not every player's experience or not

what everyone thinks about a game

368

:

So so I I like to think about these

models and ways of thinking as like

369

:

tools you say tools I use tools to

like it like on your bat belt, right?

370

:

Right.

371

:

It's like I was imagining it right down

Yeah, you can't you you can't use a

372

:

batarang to solve every problem, right?

373

:

And if all you've been doing is

practicing batarang, then you you know,

374

:

you need your your bat gas grenade

and You know, it's not there, so.

375

:

I think that, um, a lot of, a lot of

working pros, myself included, we do

376

:

get used to a particular tool belt,

you know, because we're working on

377

:

a particular genre or platform or

we've just been at it for a while.

378

:

And I think, and, you know, so

having really what I feel like this

379

:

is ultimately becoming is a giant

advertisement for this podcast because

380

:

we're going to bring lots of different

ways of thinking to people, hopefully.

381

:

Yeah.

382

:

But I think that's probably the

answer to the question that I was.

383

:

Kind of coming here with, which is,

you know, what can academia offer?

384

:

Well, it has all these, it

has a rich vocabulary, right?

385

:

Yeah.

386

:

I mean, I think not everyone

is, you know, academia is not

387

:

the right context for everyone.

388

:

But I will say that it's wonderful to

be able to, for me as a designer, to

389

:

not have to make a living for my work

and be able to do weird experiments.

390

:

So.

391

:

I've been, for the last five or

six years, I've been working with

392

:

Natalie Putzi, who's an architect.

393

:

She and I have been doing these large

scale museum installations that are games.

394

:

They're not digital,

they're just physical games.

395

:

Some of them are a little more

like theater performances.

396

:

Most of them are kind of like these

big sculptures that people play.

397

:

Some of them are huge, like huge,

immense, inflatable things with

398

:

people moving large objects.

399

:

And I could never do that if

I was working at a commercial

400

:

studio or running my own company.

401

:

I mean, I don't make money from them.

402

:

We're lucky if they break even.

403

:

But they, you know, they get shown around

the world in different museums and stuff.

404

:

And it's amazing that I'm able

to do it, and I'm able to do

405

:

it because I'm a professor.

406

:

So I teach classes here, but that's not

full time, my quote unquote research is

407

:

whatever my creative practice is, because

we're in Tisch School of the Arts, um, at

408

:

NYU, so, so that's how academia is good.

409

:

And I should also mention one other

thing to add, add to, you know,

410

:

uh, like, what can help out people.

411

:

I think collaborating with people outside

of games, it's really been helpful for me.

412

:

To, just to, just to be

with people that are not.

413

:

Always game makers, you don't realize

how much you take for granted.

414

:

You know, like every time I started

working with Natalie on a project,

415

:

I'm like, okay, so people are on a

grid and they're moving and she's

416

:

like, why are they on a grid?

417

:

And I'm like, well, of course, you

know, put them in squares on a grid.

418

:

She's like, I don't like grids.

419

:

I just don't like the way they look.

420

:

They're not going to be on

a grid and I say, well, they

421

:

have to be on sort of spaces.

422

:

We have to know where they are.

423

:

And she's like, well, let's

try some other shapes then.

424

:

So then we end up with these

weird organic kind of flowing

425

:

patterns and things like that.

426

:

You know, we just take so much for

granted as as game designers that

427

:

there's a grid and, you know, grid

underlies code to, you know, you start

428

:

a 3D space with a 3D coordinate grid.

429

:

But if that's not your starting point.

430

:

You end up somewhere different.

431

:

So that that's been one of my tools

is just finding great collaborators.

432

:

Any of those exhibits that

people could check out?

433

:

No, but you can go to ericzimmerman.

434

:

com or Natalie's site, knackworks,

N A K W O R K S dot com.

435

:

They're more like temporary exhibitions,

so they're not up permanently anywhere.

436

:

I was poking around a little

bit online and I saw on.

437

:

LinkedIn, that someone had

mentioned that GameLab was like an

438

:

incredibly well structured company.

439

:

And I thought that was a

really interesting comment

440

:

and it made me curious.

441

:

I want to learn more about what that

structure was and how it worked.

442

:

Maybe that's the best comment

I could get on GameLab.

443

:

And I should say that GameLab

wasn't just me, it was Peter Lee.

444

:

So he and I were the two co founders.

445

:

He's now living in South Korea, but um,

he and I ran GameLab for about a decade.

446

:

And GameLab made mostly online games.

447

:

Diner Dash was what, the one that

we were most well known for, but

448

:

we did a, we did a ton of games.

449

:

We did small games.

450

:

We grew to about 30 people at our peak.

451

:

Um, and I guess I always approached,

I feel like that was, that was like

452

:

a very, um, fundamental, and I don't,

I don't know it particularly well,

453

:

but like the fundamental part of the

history of the New York game scene.

454

:

Well, that's nice of you to say.

455

:

I mean, definitely when I look

around at people that are running

456

:

companies now in New York City, like

Gigantic Mechanic or Playmatics,

457

:

Frank's company, AreaCode, where you

worked, a lot of people came through.

458

:

I work with.

459

:

Work with, sorry, sorry, work with.

460

:

Um, a lot of people came through GameLab.

461

:

So, um, yeah, we were, well, we

were early and, And, uh, it's not

462

:

a huge scene here, so a lot of

people pass through the company.

463

:

I feel like I approach the design

of a company kind of like a game.

464

:

In the sense that, with a game, you're

not really designing the outcome.

465

:

Unless you're making like an

on rails shooter or something

466

:

that's a very, very linear game.

467

:

If you're designing a game like, you know,

like a game of poker or a fighting game.

468

:

You're just designing

a set of possibilities.

469

:

You don't know how they're gonna play out.

470

:

And so, that's, you know, essentially

game designers create rules, they

471

:

create a context, they create things for

people to do, or, or set up potentials,

472

:

and that's what a company is as well.

473

:

It's a set of procedures and

policies, it's a physical layout.

474

:

It's a set of personnel policies,

it's a set of kind of work

475

:

processes, and technical tools.

476

:

And you hope that, as with a

game, unexpected stuff happens.

477

:

So that, I always felt the sweetest

pleasure as a game designer for me is

478

:

seeing players do things with my games

that I never Ever could have anticipated.

479

:

Oh my gosh, I never thought this

social interaction would happen or this

480

:

strategy would happen or this, this way

of cheating at the game was possible.

481

:

You know, that's genius.

482

:

So that puts the biggest smile on my face.

483

:

And for a company, I think that was my

goal to that kind of idea of innovation

484

:

where you're just setting things in

motion and creating structures and

485

:

you realize the paradox is that yeah.

486

:

Constraints produce creativity, just like

in a game, if you give people a blank

487

:

piece of paper and a pencil, they might

not know what to do, but if you make a

488

:

tic tac toe grid, suddenly, you know,

there's something, there's something

489

:

that they can do, and there's a way

for them to be virtuosic, or generous,

490

:

or, or, or cheat, or creative, or, you

know, Let's, let's, uh, let's add some

491

:

more squares and see what happens.

492

:

So those kinds of constraints

and structures enable creativity.

493

:

That's the way we approach game labs.

494

:

So, so I'm glad that that came

across at least to someone.

495

:

What were some of the actual structures?

496

:

Like, was it, was it kind of like a,

an incubator style, what we would call

497

:

today, like an incubator or it wasn't

an incubator because we were a totally

498

:

independent company that was doing mostly

client work and some original stuff.

499

:

We did not have deep pockets.

500

:

So we were just like hustling from

month to month trying to like find

501

:

new jobs and get them done, get them

in, get a job in, do it, get it out.

502

:

We were hustling to make rent every month.

503

:

I mean, it wasn't, it wasn't like we

were about to go bankrupt, but let's

504

:

just say that I w I did business

development and you know, I was always

505

:

trying to, trying to bring in more jobs.

506

:

Once we had some successes like diner

dash, it got a little bit easier,

507

:

but then we were growing and then our

overhead was getting bigger and, you

508

:

know, we had to support even more.

509

:

But in terms of the company structures.

510

:

One of the things I liked about Gamelab

is that we never had creative directors

511

:

on projects, so we had like five to

seven people on a project, and there's

512

:

one thing I learned from this very old

and musty book, um, that was a Microsoft

513

:

book, Project Development, which was

basically, it made the distinction

514

:

between, People that kind of punch in

feel like, okay, I'm here to do my job.

515

:

I've done my job, now I'm done.

516

:

Leave me alone.

517

:

And people that feel authorship

and ownership of a project, people

518

:

that feel like they're creating

an intellectual property and

519

:

they're a genuine creative author.

520

:

And this the point of this book,

which was had some boring title,

521

:

like managing software development.

522

:

It was just a software development, not

even a game development book was just that

523

:

the, the point of designing a process.

524

:

was to give people that

feeling of authorship.

525

:

And what I realized at Gamelab

was that you can't fake it.

526

:

The only way to actually give

people authorship is if you

527

:

actually give it to them.

528

:

And so the worst creative situations I've

ever been in working with other companies

529

:

or for other companies is that when

there's sort of like a creative director,

530

:

a big ego who's sitting on top of the

project and sees everybody else as their

531

:

extensions to help, you know, You know,

fulfill their, their creative vision.

532

:

No one else feels like it's their project.

533

:

Everyone feels like they're just

like a, a tool for this big idiot to

534

:

use, you know, and so at game lab,

we never had creative directors.

535

:

We never had someone sitting at the top.

536

:

If you were doing audio design, that

was your role and your authority.

537

:

You could make creative

decisions about that.

538

:

Now that didn't mean that we

ignored the client or the publisher.

539

:

We had to please them and we had to

please the player more than anybody.

540

:

But if you have a situation

where there is trust.

541

:

Respect and communication

just like a good relationship.

542

:

If you've got all three of those things

Then people don't get territorial.

543

:

They don't say hey stay off my turf.

544

:

I'm the audio designer Don't tell me

what to do But you get the opposite.

545

:

The opposite is, I'm

desperate for feedback.

546

:

Please help me integrate what I'm

doing into what everyone else is doing.

547

:

Please tell me if it's working or not.

548

:

Please let's work together.

549

:

And guess what?

550

:

I have ideas for you too.

551

:

I have ideas about the visual

design and the game design.

552

:

And even though it's not my main

area of expertise, I want to help.

553

:

So, if you can kind of, and for me it

was almost, Peter, Lee and I really

554

:

focused on the culture of the company.

555

:

Thank you And if you can get that feeling

of collaboration, if you can get that

556

:

feeling where people have authority,

but they're not being territorial,

557

:

then it's an amazing kind of process

that can bubble up out of that.

558

:

You kind of, it's like getting something

boiling to the kind of critical mass

559

:

where ideas can come from anywhere

and people are always receptive, but

560

:

people are still focused and have

a very clear sense of their role.

561

:

So it's not just a kind of

loosey goosey collaboration.

562

:

So.

563

:

When Gamelab was at its best,

I think we achieved that.

564

:

We didn't always achieve that.

565

:

It was always a work in

progress, you know, and this is

566

:

especially true of smaller teams.

567

:

We had teams of like three, five,

seven people for most of our projects.

568

:

And so that's what I mean when I say

we were kind of like an indie studio

569

:

before indie games was a thing for those.

570

:

Smaller teams, this works really well.

571

:

I think it's probably totally different

where you have like a hundred, two

572

:

hundred people working on a project.

573

:

But I've never worked

on a triple A project.

574

:

The biggest, I've worked on like projects

with like forty, fifty, sixty people

575

:

at the most, but I've never worked on

like a really huge project like that.

576

:

You know, what you're saying

reminds me a little bit of how,

577

:

how, uh, like a band would work.

578

:

Yeah, hopefully.

579

:

Ideally, yeah.

580

:

If it works well, obviously it can

go wrong a million different ways.

581

:

Right, right.

582

:

So again, I don't feel like there's

one solution to how a company should be

583

:

structured, but I think that a lot of

people feel like, Oh, we got a good idea.

584

:

You get some smart people in a room

and then you just make the thing.

585

:

Or we've got a job, we've got a contract

now, you know, that's basically it.

586

:

We get some chairs in a room and

we just start making the game.

587

:

And I feel like you have

to design the company.

588

:

So that, that's what I feel that

people often miss is like, Oh, we have

589

:

to think about our company culture.

590

:

We have to think about the experience of

people when they come in in the morning,

591

:

when they leave at the end of the day.

592

:

And to me, it's just applying

design thinking to the idea of a

593

:

company, because you would always

think about your players that way.

594

:

You'd always think about how do they feel

when they first see the logo and title?

595

:

How do they feel when they

first load up the game?

596

:

Are we taking care of them?

597

:

Are they having fun or not?

598

:

So you just have to think about that.

599

:

Yeah.

600

:

A company in the same way.

601

:

Not that it's all about fun, but I feel

like, you know, it's like in academia,

602

:

same thing with conferences, people are

like, Oh, we'll get some smart people

603

:

on a room and put them on a panel.

604

:

Doesn't work that way.

605

:

How, what's a good panel?

606

:

What's a bad panel?

607

:

You can have, you can have, you know,

you can put shitty people on a panel, but

608

:

if the panel is well structured, Shitty.

609

:

I don't know what shitty people means.

610

:

You can, you can, you can get great

people on a panel and then they

611

:

don't have anything to say to each

other because there was no prep work.

612

:

There's no structure.

613

:

There's no, there's no,

there's not good moderation.

614

:

So it's the same thing with a company.

615

:

It's not just about getting good people

in a room, it's about creating enabling

616

:

structures that challenge them and

support them, enable their collaboration.

617

:

To me, a game designer creates the

rules of a game, but then you don't

618

:

know what your players are going to do.

619

:

So with a company, or a project,

someone has to kind of set up those

620

:

structures, and then the project

that results, The actual game

621

:

that gets launched to the public.

622

:

It's like the residue of a process.

623

:

It's like, Oh, this creative

thing happened and look,

624

:

this game was the result.

625

:

But that kind of goes back to the very

first question you asked me, which is

626

:

like, what's design about, or what's

the thing that designers should know.

627

:

And for me, it's that you have to

think about what you do as a process

628

:

and how do you engage deeply with

that process all the time and the

629

:

games we make our creative stuff.

630

:

It's like, it's like the skin we shed

as we move on to our next form or

631

:

next thing or the next next thing that

we do, you know, and we leave these

632

:

games behind and they're they're good

markers of what I was interested then

633

:

and what I was thinking about and.

634

:

And what that team was like and, and,

uh, problems that we solved, but there's

635

:

already new problems for me to solve.

636

:

And that's what I want

to be thinking about.

637

:

And the beat goes on.

638

:

Yeah, exactly.

639

:

Yeah.

640

:

Sorry.

641

:

Getting a little prosaic.

642

:

No, it's all good.

643

:

I was actually thinking the exact

same thing, that like, you're, you're

644

:

showing, you're actually showing

what you were talking about earlier,

645

:

about how design is kind of a way of

life and a way of being in the world.

646

:

Rather than, you know, a

series, a bunch of rules.

647

:

I think it's a great place to leave off.

648

:

Um, I would actually love to talk with

you more about, about that process and

649

:

about that way of life, but I think

it's going to have to be, uh, next time.

650

:

Next episode.

651

:

I'll be back for sure.

652

:

Thanks, Eric.

653

:

Thank you very much.

654

:

Thanks, Jordan.

655

:

Great talking to you.

656

:

Have a good one.

657

:

So where do you net out on tools

and kind of framework and how they

658

:

have helped you or hindered you?

659

:

And the value of these sorts of things,

you know, it's so funny to talk to a

660

:

guy who writes the book, Rules of Play,

and then says to me, hey, you know what?

661

:

It's not about the rules,

it's about the way of being.

662

:

I feel like it's one of those

paradoxes wrapped inside an enigma.

663

:

Or maybe an enigma

wrapped inside a paradox.

664

:

You know, Eric also kind of reminded

me of a Zen monk, or a Buddhist monk.

665

:

Some of his perspectives made me

think of Buddhist stories like the

666

:

idea of, you know, you destroy the

raft when you cross the river, right?

667

:

When you are seeking to become

enlightened, you're looking for

668

:

the wisdom, for the info, for the

knowledge, but once you've crossed into

669

:

enlightenment, you know that the ladder

that took you there, or the raft that

670

:

took you across that river, was a lie.

671

:

Not unlike the cake in Portal 2.

672

:

And I think that's kind of the

deal when it comes to these

673

:

frameworks, practices, rules, tools.

674

:

These concepts are incredibly

valuable and useful, and I think the

675

:

more of them you have, the better.

676

:

At the same time, once you've mastered

them, you need to be able to let them go.

677

:

And that can be really hard to

do, especially since they've

678

:

probably served you really well.

679

:

You know, another expression in

Buddhism is the gateless gate.

680

:

You walk through a gate and

you turn around and it's gone.

681

:

And I think that's a little bit

of what it's like to master your

682

:

craft, whatever that may be, whether

it's in the game industry or not.

683

:

So, I wish you an enjoyable

journey through your gateless gate.

684

:

And I will see you on the

next episode of PlayMakers.

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