Episode 8

Building Empathy & Emotion into Your Game, with Robin Hunicke

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Robin Hunicke is an innovative American video game artist. She's also a professor of game design at UC Santa Cruz and the co-founder of Funomena. Hunicke is recognized in the industry for her support of independent game development, experimentation in game design, research in dynamic difficulty adjustment, and the advocacy of women within the games industry. In this interview, we discuss her unique take on games as art, and the process she uses to imbue her games with emotion. Visit www.playmakerspodcast.com to get access to the full blog post for this episode and much more!

Transcript
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Welcome to PlayMakers episode 8.

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I'm your host, Jordan Blackman, and

on every episode, I interview a game

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industry leader, legend, or luminary,

and I dive deep into their expertise

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to help you learn things that are

gonna help you achieve creative and

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business success in the game industry.

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This week, we have Robin Honecke.

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She's worked on The Sims.

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She's got a new studio, Phenomenon,

that's doing some really cool stuff.

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We talk about her unique and artistic

approach to game making, and In this

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episode of Plamacus, Plamacus It's

not actually pronounced Plamacus, FYI.

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Alright, enough goofing around,

let's talk about Robin Hunnicke.

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So, Robin is someone who

really has had a truly luminary

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career in the game industry.

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She's worked on games including

The Sims, including Journey,

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she's doing incredible stuff.

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At, uh, her new studio phenomena

and that's F U N phenomena.

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And on top of all that she teaches

game design at UC Santa Cruz.

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So, uh, we talk about a lot of things.

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First of all, we learned a little bit

about her unique path into the industry.

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Then we spent some time talking about.

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Uh, her approach to making games.

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And it's an approach that has consistently

produced some really amazing, interesting,

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beautiful, emotionally affecting games.

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Now she is known in fact, for an

emotionally, uh, aware approach

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and, and, uh, an approach that

involves putting the emotions that

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are desired for the game to create.

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front and center.

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So we talk about that.

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And also because she's a, she

accomplishes so much and does so much.

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I also talked to her a little bit

about her productivity processes

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and how she does all that stuff.

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You know, I mean, you go to the phenomena

page and there's so many cool games being

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worked on there and working at UC Santa

Cruz and she gives back to the gaming

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community at GDC and, uh, and she's

an amazing guest on this show as well.

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So.

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Just an incredible person all around.

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Very excited to share this

interview with Robin Hunneke.

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You're listening to Plamacus.

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Robin, it is so great

to have you on the show.

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Thanks for coming on.

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And thank you so much for having me.

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So I wanted to start with learning about

your inspiration, about what brought

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you into the industry and how that

happened, because you bring a very unique

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voice to your work and it's amazing.

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It's different than a lot of games, and

so I'm curious your path into games.

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Yeah, you know, it's funny.

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I started off as a curious

child, someone who loved to

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play with Legos and make things.

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I grew up in upstate New York in a

tiny town called Saratoga Springs,

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which is right near Skidmore College.

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It's a horse town.

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I was outside most of my young adult life,

so I spent a lot of time climbing and

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building and playing in the snow and my

dad was a, was an engineer and a builder.

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My mom is actually a history buff,

but also, and a teacher, but also I'm

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really into like crafting baskets,

weaving, making stuff like the old ways.

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So I grew up really with like a hands

on, uh, education in how people made

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like colonial crafts, for example.

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Like I was, I'm a child of the 70s.

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So it was like, you know, all right,

let's all make these soap from animal fat.

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You know, I saw that in

your special collar today.

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Let's hit, yeah, let's hit, you know,

hand, hand dip these candles or whatever.

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Um, but, um, I also was, you know,

exposed to video games when they first

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started coming out in the console

form through ColecoVision and then

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Atari through friends of mine who

had those systems at their houses.

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So my first, like, real video game

love was I fell in love with the

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game Mule, like, in seventh grade.

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I was playing it on a friend's

brother's Commodore 64.

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And I just loved the idea that you

could play with somebody else and

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then also play against the computer.

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Like, to me, that was

just so mind blowing.

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Like, I'd played Pitfall and, you know,

Mario games and stuff, but I'd never

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really seen that kind of interactivity.

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And then, when we finally did get a

Super Nintendo, and we're, you know,

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playing other games and stuff, I

was like, you know, these games are

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okay, but they're not as cool as M.

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U.

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L.

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E.

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Because M.

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U.

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L.

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E., you can play with a machine,

and you can also kind of, like,

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basically try to outdo each other

in, in the real world space.

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And so, I always had this experience of

games where it was like, yeah, no, popular

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games are cool, but, like, I really like

these games that do weird, Different

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ways of making you interact and I end

up going to school for Sort of I did a

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choose your own adventure major and in

oral narrative and women's studies and

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computer science I kind of fell into the

computer science thing because I didn't

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want to take a math class So I took

this class called computer programming

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as a liberal art and then I ended up

becoming a programmer and really have

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like obsessed almost with like Programming

and learning how to use computers.

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Um, and actually when I was taking

those classes, the minor was actually

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math because there wasn't a computer

science department, uh, at my university,

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which was the university of Chicago.

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So I started working in a computer lab and

then I got really interested in working

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with a graduate professor on robots.

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And one of the people in that team was

working on an AI that could play the Sims

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or SimCity for you, um, called Mayor.

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And I started talking with

that person about video games.

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I was like, Oh, you know, I used to love

video games when I was a kid and right

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around that same time, mist came out.

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And so then I started playing

a lot more video games.

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And so I was in school and my early

twenties, like going from undergraduate

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into graduate school thinking,

wow, you know, games are so cool.

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What an interesting, you know, thing.

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And then at some point, it

clicked with me that they were

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actually designed by people.

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That like, there was a whole community

of game designers, like, Will Wright

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was a person that he had designed

SimCity, and then it was like a job.

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And in that moment, I think I, I

really, I probably like just all the

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neurons in my brain exploded at once.

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It was like this like massive revelation,

like, this is a career that people do.

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And from that point forward, I

just wanted to meet game designers

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and talk to them about games.

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And.

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How did they build them?

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How did they design them?

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You know, because they kind of

combined all of my interests.

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Computer programming, sound design and

music, art, animation, storytelling,

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and then of course this funky

interactivity that you get with games,

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like the interactivity I was talking

about with Mule, where you can be

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playing against a system that's been

designed by a person, but then you

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can also be playing against people.

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That you are talking to

about how the system behaves.

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And then you can play a game with

somebody where you're both trying to

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figure out how the system behaves.

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And I just, that combination of like

human communication with each other

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and human computer interaction was

just, it was like so sticky for me.

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And I think it was really the only

place I felt at home, honestly.

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I went to the Game Developers

Conference in:

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was the first time I went.

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Um, I crashed into friends cars.

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floor in their hotel room.

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I got a pass by kind of sidling up to

someone that was part of the organizing

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committee and, you know, basically

begging them for a free pass because

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I was a broke ass grad student.

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Um, and then, uh, and pretty much from

there, you know, that was the moment that

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I knew like, okay, these are my people.

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Like, I want to, I want to be

around game designers all the time.

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Like, I want to talk to them all the time.

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So, I started volunteering with the IGDA.

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I got a couple of IGDA

scholarships, actually, so that

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I could go to more conferences.

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Oh, that's great.

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And, yeah, and I started volunteering

to help, um, design a curriculum

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to teach games in colleges.

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Because I was like, well, ooh, wouldn't

it be so cool if you could actually

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major in games and game design?

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Because at the time, you couldn't do that.

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And then I think that the other really

formative experience for me was I had

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some friends that I'd met in this period

of time when I was like a grad student

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that organized, um, this get together in

Oakland where we were all going to kind

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of, uh, get a bunch of machines from

Intel and then make games on them and

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then just give them away for free, which

at the time was a really bizarre idea.

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And we decided to call it the

Indie Game Jam, and it was

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like the first game jam ever.

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Wow.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, and so I was the first female

game jammer on the planet Earth.

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That is so cool.

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Yeah, so we started the Game Jam, and

then we founded this little get together

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called the Experimental Gameplay Workshop,

which is now in its, like, 16th year

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at GDC, where we showed the games off

to a bunch of our peers at GDC, and

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that really sealed the deal for me.

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I was like, this is the best thing ever.

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I didn't even really care if I ever had a

career commercially in games, because most

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of the people that were at the Indie Game

Jam, like, I'm like Chris Hecker and Sean

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Barrett and Brian Sharpe, a lot of the

people that I'm still really close friends

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with, Otman Binstock, who's now at Oculus.

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They were all just kind of like bumming

around doing odd jobs and like some of

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them had commercial jobs, but mostly

they were just kind of doing research

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on the fringes of the games community.

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And I really was like, I kind of

associated myself with that crew.

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Like, okay, I'm sort of a

programmer, but I'm really

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interested in experimental gameplay.

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Like John Blow was another

founding member of that group.

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Um, and this is, you know, this is before

there was any XBLA or any of that stuff.

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stuff.

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You really, the only way you

could get a game published

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was if you were a publisher.

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So if you made a game, you had to go

and pitch it to a publisher and then you

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had to get permission from them to even

put it on a disc to put it on a console.

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So it was a really different

environment for me.

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So I think even as I was becoming a

game designer and learning the way

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to eventually do an interview and get

my first job, which was on the Sims.

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Like, even as I was entering that path

for me, the idea of game design as a

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career was more about, um, being on the

fringes of that sort of more corporate

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culture and trying to be more artistic

and more innovative than it was about

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like working on my favorite game, you

know, which I ended up getting to do.

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I did end up getting to work

on the Sims, which was great.

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But when I started off, it was more like,

I was just really curious to kind of.

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Make stuff and see what happens you've

really you know made that your your path

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And I think in a lot of ways that the

game industry has has stretched towards

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you Yes, and it's you know, people

always say to me Well, it must be so

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intimidating to be a woman in games or

you know Oh, it's like it seems like the

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community so toxic or this or that and

To me, it's like, you know, there are

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times when, yeah, like the internet is

a jerk, but that that's just, yeah, it's

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like, that's just like, as we're all

seeing now, that's just the internet.

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I find that the community of game

development for the most part, and

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especially the people that I are in my

circle, experimental game designers, I

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would say, are some of the most open,

loving, accepting, diverse people on the

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planet earth because they're real weirdos.

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You know, they don't really

fit in to any one category.

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I mean, you don't see them.

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sit at home alone for seven years making

Stardew Valley if you just like could just

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go anywhere and just check in with anybody

like you're a really unique individual

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if you do that you're the kind of person

that is like you wake up thinking about

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things that will make your game better

and like that's that's not a lot of people

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on this planet you know so I think it's

a really special community and one that

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I'm honestly I'm really honored to be a

part of and to see it Spanned the way that

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it has in the last 10 years has been on.

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It's just been amazing.

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I, I would say over the last 15

years, the games industry has

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changed to become so much more than

it was when I first started, and,

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and I'm really, really excited to

see the future of, of that change.

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One of the things we're gonna talk

more about your work in a little bit,

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but it has a very human quality and I

think it's also interesting to hear.

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I hear that also in your career

and in the way you've developed it.

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And, um, and that's also been a

theme actually with some of the most

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successful people I've had on the show.

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And I think it's, it's great.

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Thank you.

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It's deliberate.

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I mean, I think about it often.

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I ask myself often, you know,

what can I do to be of service?

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Like, what is the, what is the goal?

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You know, why am I doing what I'm doing?

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Cause it's a short ride.

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You know, you're only on the

planet for, I mean, compared to

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most rocks, you're like a baby.

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So it's just an interesting, it's

interesting to think about how short

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your time is and to you, it seems

so long, but really like even to

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your, the tree in your yard, it's

probably like, you're just a blink.

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And we only get to make so many games.

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That's true.

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Well, I'm curious to learn about some of

your heroes and mentors along the way.

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I think you may have mentioned some

of them already, but I'd love to,

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to maybe pick out two or three that

really, really impacted you and

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the way you think about your work.

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Yeah.

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Well, I mean, I always sort of say that

there were, there were two people that

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were extremely supportive of me doing what

I do, uh, or very early on in my career.

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Um, or maybe it would be more like two

sets of people and, and one set would be

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the set of like looking glass MIT folks.

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Who, uh, just around the time that

I was kind of really seriously

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considering getting into this as

a career, Lookingglass closed.

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And so, that would include the folks

from Harmonix, and Lookingglass, and a

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lot of other people that end up going

off and doing really interesting things.

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Um, Warren Spector, and, uh, Doug

Church, and I think Chris and John.

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Doug, Chris, John, and Warren were sort

of my, uh, Go to mentors for a really

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long time when I was in grad school And

then the other set of people would be

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the people that I've touched my life in

the commercial setting So people like

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Will Wright who sort of was the first

person to say to me that I actually

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sounded like a game designer He said

it to me in like a casual conversation.

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We were having at a conference

Oh my god, like, really?

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I'm just an academic.

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And he's like, no, you sure

sound like a game designer.

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And he's been super supportive

of me throughout the years.

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That's a pretty good Will

impersonation you got there.

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Yeah, he's, he's so great.

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I really, I really appreciate his brain.

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Um, uh, uh, Rod Humble also was,

uh, was a fellow collaborator and

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someone that really helped me.

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I don't know, Rod.

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Who's Rod?

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Rod is, um, he was actually, uh, sort

of running the Sims franchise, uh,

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while I was working there on MySims.

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He made a game, which we showed

at Experimental Gameplay Workshop

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really early on, called The Marriage,

which was one of my favorite games.

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I think I remember that.

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Yeah, one of my favorite

experimental games.

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Yeah, so you're like in a room

on a, on a, in an apartment.

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It's nighttime and you're

trying to go out and you talk.

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Is this the right?

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No, no, that's actually facade.

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Okay.

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I was thinking facade.

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Yeah.

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Facades also, that's another

colleague of mine actually who I work

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with at school now, who is also a

real supportive person in my life.

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But, um, no, this is just a very

abstract game about, uh, And it's his

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interpretation of what makes a marriage

work, or what makes a marriage not work.

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And they kind of float around on screen.

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Um, it's a very, very,

very, very abstract game.

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And it's very, very much told from

his unique perspective about his

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own personal experience of marriage.

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But, to me, what it did at the time

was it showed me that you could You

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could really, like, conceptualize a

process that was so intimate and so

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complex as a series of actions in a

space and have it be really moving.

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Um, and so he was, he was

also really supportive.

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Um, and then there are a lot of women

in my later career that have been

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fantastic, including Siobhan Reddy

from MeA Molecule and Angie Smets, who,

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uh, runs the guerrilla team that just

shipped, uh, shipped Horizon Zero Dawn.

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Um, they've been incredibly supportive

of me as I've, um, As I've moved

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forward in my career, not just as a

designer, but as a studio CEO and like

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a person who's a lead in a leadership

role, um, and Kelly Wallach, who, uh,

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now runs the IGF and Indie Megabooth.

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I think those three women have been

really, really influential and my

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ability to see myself as, um, as a

strong leader who's also sensitive

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to the needs of others, because I

think we get a lot of role models.

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In leadership context, especially

where it's like you're supposed to be

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tough, you know, um, and, uh, and I've

learned over the years that the, the

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approach of really having that sort

of empathetic, like putting yourself

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in the shoes of the other person first

and foremost, seeking to understand

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before seeking to be understood.

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Those three ladies have really given

me a lot of feedback about that.

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I used this question partly to

help, uh, help me figure out who

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I want to invite on the show next.

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So that was great because it was, it was

a lot of people to So thanks for that.

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Now, as far as, uh, as far as the

next step in the interview, I wanted

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to ask about, uh, what you do unique.

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So we talked about a lot of people who've

influenced you, you know, and I'm going

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to tell you what my thoughts after, but

you already used the word several times.

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So, I mean, I believe that games.

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Are about interactivity and expression

of yourself and also expression

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of, um, of concepts through action.

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And so, you know, I, while I was in

graduate school and starting to do all

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this outreach work and volunteering and

meeting people, one of the things that

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I started doing was teaching in this

game design workshop, uh, run actually

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by a Looking Glass alum, Marc LeBlanc.

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And we ended up kind of collaborating.

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I wrote a paper on which he's an author,

um, about this philosophy of mechanics.

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Dynamics, aesthetics, and you

know, the way that I have read that

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very influential on me personally.

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That's awesome.

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I mean, I, when I was first exposed to

the workshop, I thought this is amazing.

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Like, let's really delve into it.

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And I really, I ended up dropping

out of my PhD in computer

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science to go work for the Sims.

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But if I had finished, I mean, you

know, when I eventually write a book,

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which I hope I will someday, it'll be

about this, this theory, because I think

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it applies to a lot of other things.

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But, you know, this idea that There are

the mechanics of the system, which are

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the rules, the dynamics of the system,

which is the behavior that emerges

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when you're all sitting around the

table, say, playing poker, you know,

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it doesn't say in poker that you have

to bluff, but everybody does it, right?

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That's a dynamic.

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And then the aesthetic outcome, which

is the feeling of like, Shodden Friday

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that you get when somebody folds

and you know that you were bluffing.

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Like, the aesthetic outcome of a game of

poker is often that you feel like you're

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secretly smarter or took advantage of

other people and that feeling of shodden

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Friday and getting over on other people

is what makes poker such a cutthroat game.

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And so juicy, even when the stakes are

really low, there's that feeling of

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cleverness that comes from it, right?

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Unless you're losing constantly.

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Well, that's the other thing.

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Which happens a lot.

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The problem with poker is that

three people at the table, three

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to five people, have the opposite

experience of you when you win.

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And I'm actually terrible at poker

because my tells are too big, so I don't

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play it professionally by a long shot.

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But this is like, you know, this

idea that like the feeling or the

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outcome of the game It's a unique

expression of its rules and then the

354

:

interaction of its rules with people

has been the cornerstone of my career.

355

:

And so when I started thinking about,

well, okay, if that's true about games,

356

:

what I want to build, well, I want to

build games to give people new feelings.

357

:

I want to build games to give

people feelings about other people.

358

:

I want to build games that give people

feelings of understanding or appreciation,

359

:

love, sadness, loss, recovery.

360

:

Like, I'm really interested in topics that

are about the things that I feel other

361

:

media doesn't necessarily address as well.

362

:

It's a lot harder, I mean, to, to

really understand what someone totally

363

:

different from you is going through.

364

:

Um, if you're just

reading it or watching it.

365

:

Because there's always that room

for you being outside looking in.

366

:

But if you're doing it, if you're walking

in that person's shoes, moment to moment,

367

:

and having to make tough decisions

based on their situation, which you are

368

:

embodying, there's, there's a moment

in there which is so unique to games.

369

:

And I think the sort of, sort of sad

truth about games is it's very easy

370

:

to make a game that's as entertaining

as a very popular, you know, Um,

371

:

explosive summer blockbuster movie,

or that's as entertaining as, um,

372

:

you know, uh, a novel, um, you know,

based on this idea of like, there's

373

:

a bad guy and you got to get revenge.

374

:

Like, those kinds of things are really

easy to do with a video game, especially

375

:

if the mechanic that you put in the video

game is like, Shooting or jumping because

376

:

shooting and jumping are really easy

to execute on screen and then you can

377

:

just slap the story on and there you go.

378

:

Right.

379

:

And like those are the things

that we're really best at.

380

:

Well we, we know what

the aesthetic outcome is.

381

:

Very, we, we already understand it and

therefore we can, we know also that those

382

:

mechanics are then gonna drive through.

383

:

It's a hundred percent those

dynamics and get there.

384

:

Exactly.

385

:

It's like you don't even have

to really do that much work.

386

:

The really hard thing to do with a game.

387

:

Is to, is to make it be really good at

what it's uniquely good at, which is

388

:

using a set of mechanics to create new

dynamics in a person that then create

389

:

this totally unexpected emotional outcome.

390

:

So like something like Journey,

where Jenova was like, I want

391

:

to create a genuine connection

between strangers online.

392

:

When we work backwards from that

feeling to, okay, well, what's

393

:

the dynamic that would really be

existing between these two people?

394

:

Such that they would feel awe

and wonder towards each other and

395

:

on wonder towards the unknown.

396

:

Okay, we work backwards to the dynamics

Okay, well, they trust each other and

397

:

they'd help each other and they'd want

to guide each other and they'd want

398

:

to support one another Okay well then

what are the mechanics that lead to

399

:

that and like I'm not gonna lie a lot

of the stuff that we tried out was just

400

:

like Platforming and we even actually

at one point as a joke implemented

401

:

a, uh, a laser cannon idea from the

sky just to do it for stress relief.

402

:

But, but for the most part, we had

to work through a lot of really

403

:

kind of commonplace mechanics to

get to the few simple things that

404

:

journey does that create that feeling

of trust between strangers and

405

:

eventually lead to that connection.

406

:

You know, it was really a

process of winnowing out.

407

:

And so for me.

408

:

I really am interested in that work.

409

:

I'm interested in thinking about,

okay, what if I made a game about lust?

410

:

Or what if I made a game about recovery?

411

:

Or what if I made a game about grief?

412

:

And then work backwards.

413

:

Okay, well, what would the dynamics

be between the player and the

414

:

characters in that game or the

players that were playing it?

415

:

And then work backward to that and

figure out, okay, what are the rules

416

:

that the system needs to implement?

417

:

That work to me is the most fulfilling

and interesting work in game design.

418

:

And, you know, I love playing

games that are not that.

419

:

But when I'm making a game, and

when I'm collaborating with other

420

:

people You know, that's the kind

of work that I want to be doing.

421

:

And I want my games to be different.

422

:

I want them to be experimental and

artistic and to approach the problem of

423

:

interactivity from a fresh perspective.

424

:

I always want to be

working on something fresh.

425

:

Um, even if it's just fresh for me, it's

like at some point, maybe I'll build a

426

:

massively multiplayer roguelike, you know?

427

:

Um, but when I do it, I'm not going

to do it from the mechanics forward.

428

:

I'm going to do it from the feeling

backwards, you know, I'm going

429

:

to figure out those mechanics.

430

:

Based on my desire to create a

feeling in the, in the player.

431

:

And that, that really necessitates

that word, which is empathy.

432

:

In order to understand that goal, you

have to put yourself in the shoes of

433

:

a, of an everyday, common game player.

434

:

Or a person who's never played games, or

a person who thinks games are horrible.

435

:

And then try to win them over

through the process of design.

436

:

And I think that that's, that focus on

doing, doing it backwards, basically.

437

:

And focusing on the end first.

438

:

A user centered design is

sometimes what it's referred

439

:

to in more technical circles.

440

:

That process of user centered

activity requires being in

441

:

the footsteps of that user.

442

:

And thinking about Who is the

player and why are they playing

443

:

my game and, you know, what are

they going to get out of it?

444

:

I want to back up for a second and

make sure the audience is, is with

445

:

us because, uh, the audience is, is

not, is even not just game designers.

446

:

So when you're talking about mechanics,

dynamics, aesthetics, we're saying,

447

:

Hey, what are the rules of the game?

448

:

That's the mechanics.

449

:

The dynamics are the runtime,

unpredictable ways that those

450

:

rules are coming together.

451

:

To create some sort of experience

and the aesthetics is the the effect

452

:

in the person who's playing well.

453

:

How does it make them feel?

454

:

What is the subjective

quality exactly exactly?

455

:

And so, for example, in in journey, which

is a game in which you journey to come out

456

:

and you see another person in the distance

maybe and you can connect with them.

457

:

What we did was we built an online

multiplayer system where you're

458

:

just walking through the world

and this other person appears.

459

:

Normally in online multiplayer games,

there's a lobby and you go in and you're

460

:

dealing with all this stuff, trying

to get matched up with someone at the

461

:

same skill level, blah, blah, blah.

462

:

We just got rid of all that and

made it so that when you're in

463

:

the game, you start playing.

464

:

If you're online, other people

who are playing online near

465

:

you show up in your game.

466

:

And we created a server that made

that seamless online connection

467

:

the focus of the gameplay.

468

:

And so the core sort of rule of the game

is that you need to get from the beginning

469

:

of the game to the end of the game.

470

:

And then the other kind of rule

that's in that world is that when

471

:

you are close enough to someone else

who's playing, but not so close that

472

:

they're just going to pop into your

universe, They become visible to you.

473

:

So we basically hide all the people that

are playing the game except one person.

474

:

And you can connect with

one person at a time.

475

:

And this idea of having a long journey

and only being able to see one other

476

:

pilgrim on the same route as you go

means that you have a choice as a player.

477

:

Do I stay with this pilgrim or do I leave?

478

:

Do I try to, you know, reinforce

the connection with this person and

479

:

call to them and dance with them?

480

:

and spend time with them, which has its

own rewards, or do I walk my own way?

481

:

And that, just even making that decision,

is a huge, it's a huge difference

482

:

from the way that most online games

are made, and that's just simply

483

:

through the design of, of, of the

mechanics, and the resulting dynamics.

484

:

You know, as you've explained it, and

explained the, uh, Jenova's idea of

485

:

having a game where you could have a

real connection with someone online,

486

:

the insight that I had was, it has this

feeling of loneliness, of course it

487

:

does, because if you want to connect with

someone, you have to first Make that,

488

:

you know, put the, put the people in

some amount of isolation and suddenly.

489

:

The person you interact with,

you know, is a warm fire.

490

:

Exactly.

491

:

And so, you know, when we were starting

to think about building Luna, you know,

492

:

one of the things I really want people

to understand about this character is

493

:

that the character has made a mistake.

494

:

And so, you know, when we

make games, a lot of times.

495

:

They're about getting revenge or,

like, correcting a mistake, going

496

:

back in time and fixing something so

that, like, it's better for everybody.

497

:

But that's not really

how life is, you know?

498

:

Like, in life, you make mistakes and

then you have to learn to live with them.

499

:

And learning to live with your

mistakes sometimes means giving up

500

:

on a relationship or apologizing

for something that you said.

501

:

Sometimes it means letting go of a

toxic relationship in in your family.

502

:

Or in your life, sometimes it means being

very angry and then letting that anger go.

503

:

But like mistakes are not something that

you just erase from your life, right?

504

:

And so when we, when we talked about

the game, we first started making the

505

:

game, Martin, my co founder was like,

well, what, what should we be doing?

506

:

And I was like, we should think about

this question, you know, of mistakes.

507

:

And so actually for the first, let's

say maybe the first year while we were

508

:

doing previs and I was like, Folding

paper and doing all these things

509

:

about transformation and looking at

transformative art and fairy tales and

510

:

the idea of a mistake in our culture.

511

:

I did one very specific

exercise with everyone I met.

512

:

Every new person that I met, whether

it was a cab driver or a friend or

513

:

whatever, for about a year, I would

ask them, why do people do things

514

:

that they know are bad for them?

515

:

Because in a way, a mistake is

kind of like, if it's an accidental

516

:

mistake, we don't really punish

ourselves so much about it.

517

:

It's when they're deliberate.

518

:

It's like, I made a choice.

519

:

And it turned out it was really

bad for me or I made a choice.

520

:

It turned out it was really

bad for somebody else.

521

:

And so I thought, okay, well I'm really

interested in the specific mistake

522

:

of like knowing something's not gonna

be good for you, but doing it anyway.

523

:

So I'm gonna ask everybody about that.

524

:

And I think what you learn as you, as

you begin a project like that, from that

525

:

perspective of what's the feeling is

that you learn so much more about people.

526

:

If you can be open to that kind

of practice, and you know, people

527

:

would tell me all kinds of stuff.

528

:

Sometimes people would say, well,

they do things that they know are

529

:

bad for them because they don't care.

530

:

And they're just like the thrill,

you know, sometimes that people would

531

:

say, well, it's because they think the

benefits are going to outweigh the costs.

532

:

And then later they realized they didn't.

533

:

Um, some people would say, because nobody

really knows what a mistake is until it's

534

:

already happened, you know, and as you

start to think it through, you realize,

535

:

wow, like it's such a rich area to

explore a character that makes a mistake.

536

:

You know, and then has to

actually live with that mistake

537

:

and try to figure it out.

538

:

The residue of the mistake is the, is

kind of there through the experience.

539

:

I mean, I, I didn't even

realize that aspect of the game.

540

:

Well, of course, I mean, you know,

when you play the game, like just with

541

:

Journey, when you play Journey, I don't

know that most people really get The

542

:

core conversations we had about, you

know, the reason that we need empathy

543

:

in the world and the reason it's

important to love other people and

544

:

treat everyone as unique and special.

545

:

Like, there were a lot of deep

conversations that we had about the

546

:

philosophy of togetherness and our

society and its obsession with the

547

:

fast pace and digital technologies

and how, you know, really like.

548

:

How often do you really

feel alone in life?

549

:

Maybe you go on a hike by

yourself once a year, maybe.

550

:

How often do people really feel

comfortable putting themselves

551

:

so far away from all of humanity?

552

:

And yet, how often do you feel isolated?

553

:

How often do you feel

completely separate, right?

554

:

Like, that's actually very common.

555

:

It can feel very isolated and

separate while sitting on a crowded

556

:

train, you know, playing your DS.

557

:

You know, like it's totally possible and

so, but I don't know that everyone that

558

:

plays Journey gets that feeling from it,

but there's, like you said, there's the

559

:

residue of that conversation in the game.

560

:

And I think with Luna, the whole point

of it for, for me and for the people

561

:

that are working on the game is to sort

of think through, well, fairy tales

562

:

and fables really do try to educate us.

563

:

about mistakes.

564

:

And what they're trying to tell

us more often than not is that you

565

:

learn from your mistakes, that the

mistake can be recovered from, and

566

:

that there are some kinds of mistakes

that even though they seem terrible,

567

:

turn out to be a real benefit.

568

:

You know, one of the most common fairy

tales is the fool who does everything

569

:

wrong and in the end ends up king, you

know, they, they, like they, they just

570

:

defy conventional wisdom and then somehow

end up getting this really lucky break.

571

:

And, you know, that story that

like life is a lot more about chaos

572

:

and lack of control and being open

to the future rather than being

573

:

about doing everything perfectly.

574

:

I mean, what an amazing message

to even, even if it's just

575

:

subconscious to get that across.

576

:

I think it would be so important

and healing for, for society.

577

:

I mean, to get us away from this idea

that we can do everything right the first

578

:

time, which really, honestly, I think if

we could, we would, we would be robots.

579

:

And, and, and that would be so fun.

580

:

And the mistakes are how we learn.

581

:

They're who we are even

before we make the mistake.

582

:

Exactly.

583

:

You know, there was a piece that

we listened to on NPR when we were

584

:

first starting to work on Luna about

a family that had a trauma in its

585

:

past that had kind of hidden the

trauma from future generations.

586

:

And at some point, one of the characters

in the story said, if you, if you

587

:

deny the mistake, if you deny the

trauma, the reality of that mistake,

588

:

then you're denying who you are.

589

:

You're really not acknowledging

that this is part of who you are.

590

:

And it's only by accepting it and

actually acknowledging it that you can

591

:

really become who you want to become.

592

:

Because otherwise you're

always defined by that denial.

593

:

And I thought that was just

so interesting, you know?

594

:

Yeah, absolutely.

595

:

And, and, you know, society

sometimes figures that, figures

596

:

that out when we memorialize

things and And sometimes we don't.

597

:

Yeah.

598

:

Yeah.

599

:

I think it's a very interesting process.

600

:

So, you know, to bring it back to this

idea of aesthetics, this aesthetic

601

:

outcome of being about transformation

through trauma, being about, about

602

:

the value of learning from tough

situations or unexpected change.

603

:

That really is like.

604

:

I want that to be clear somehow

in the game at its end, and I want

605

:

players to experience a sense of

letting go, of letting go of something

606

:

that is deep inside of them, giving

themselves permission to let it go.

607

:

I think that if every person that

played Luna would just reach down

608

:

inside and take a little scribble that

was in there that was something that

609

:

they felt bad about, and let it go,

that would be such an amazing thing.

610

:

You know, it's a terror.

611

:

It's a terribly lofty goal.

612

:

And like, I think, you know, being an

artist, one always has goals that are

613

:

much larger than what one can accomplish.

614

:

But I believe in having those

goals from the beginning.

615

:

Have you been to Burning Man?

616

:

No, I have not actually.

617

:

I've never been because I'm I'm very

pale and I'm afraid of getting a sunburn,

618

:

but people always encourage me to go.

619

:

I will go sometime.

620

:

There's a big part of the experience that

has to do specifically with letting go.

621

:

That's why I brought it up.

622

:

Um, there's, uh, every year there's

a temple built and people bring, uh,

623

:

memories of things that they've lost

or mistakes that they've made and they,

624

:

they put it up in the temple and, and

the whole thing is burned and it's

625

:

a very cathartic, very sad moment.

626

:

Uh, a lot of people are crying.

627

:

Yeah, you know I think that our ability

to sort of acknowledge failure and to live

628

:

through it is, it's, it's not helped by

a lot of cultural messages and especially

629

:

marketed messages about you know, what's

the perfect person, what's the perfect

630

:

woman, what's the perfect life, what

kind of car you should drive, you know,

631

:

what what it means to be successful.

632

:

Um, I have friends, I have a lot of

friends now who are in their 40s and

633

:

50s who are saying to themselves,

you know, I'm going to give myself

634

:

permission to stop working in this career

path and do something I really love.

635

:

I'm going to go to Burning Man

and build something huge in

636

:

the desert and set it on fire.

637

:

That's actually something that someone

said to me literally Literally days

638

:

ago, um, who'd spent a long time,

um, building a career for themselves.

639

:

Um, they're an immigrant, they

like worked super hard and

640

:

they got to where they are now.

641

:

And they realized, you know,

this ladder kind of, it's

642

:

like, I'm on the last rung now.

643

:

Like I'm here, I made it and

now I want to do something else.

644

:

And like confronting that is so hard.

645

:

It's so scary.

646

:

And at the same time, it's like.

647

:

If you don't confront it, I mean,

you're not really living, right?

648

:

That's, that's, I think when I, when

I, when people ask me why I like game

649

:

design, I say, I love game design

because it is so hard, so hard.

650

:

I asked my students all the time, like,

okay, let's, let's say you wanted to

651

:

make a game about a child that you had

that died of cancer, how would you do it?

652

:

How did Ryan and his team

come up with the ideas?

653

:

For that drug and cancer, like really ask

yourself, how do you make the experience

654

:

of being told by a doctor that your

child is going to die in three months, a

655

:

thing that is interactive, that also is

respectful of that process and also, gives

656

:

you a sense of what they went through.

657

:

Like, how would you do that?

658

:

It's so hard, you know?

659

:

How do you build a game that's all

about perspective and looking at the

660

:

world from a different perspective?

661

:

Like, you have to basically

do all this integrative,

662

:

innovative graphics programming.

663

:

You know, when John built The

Witness, he had to do a lot of work.

664

:

on the game engine side to make

the puzzles in that game possible.

665

:

Like, it's some of the most amazing

programming, I think, in a video game.

666

:

Like, it's very hard to do design when you

start to think about, like, game design

667

:

as the possibility space of all human

feeling and not just points or getting

668

:

rank or, you know, getting all the gear

so that you can kill the giant dragon

669

:

at the end of a of a series of rooms.

670

:

You know, it's a lot more than that.

671

:

Absolutely.

672

:

And this, you know, this way of

processing design is very, you know,

673

:

it's not the typical conversation, uh,

that, that happens and certainly that,

674

:

that I have, um, and I love it for me.

675

:

It's very exciting to, to

talk about it like this.

676

:

I have, I have.

677

:

Two, two questions about this

that I want to talk to you about.

678

:

One is how, how do you do it?

679

:

I mean, you've talked about putting

yourself in the shoes of the player.

680

:

You've talked about kind of

understanding the experience itself.

681

:

Any tips on connecting those lines?

682

:

And then, and then secondly, and we can

get back to this, for, for, you know,

683

:

designers who are maybe working on a more

traditional game, Uh, you know, how can

684

:

they fit some of this into their work?

685

:

So I think that people ask me a

lot of times, where do I start?

686

:

And what I ask them to do is

to just imagine the most simple

687

:

paper prototype possible.

688

:

Even to just do it with like

playing cards or a couple of

689

:

dice and a hand handmade deck.

690

:

Try to think about how to get to

the feeling that they wanna get to.

691

:

So, you know, um.

692

:

I have a, I had a student at school,

actually, she's still, she's getting

693

:

ready to graduate soon, um, who was

in an autobiographical games class

694

:

that I taught, and, uh, she lives

with autism, she's on the spectrum,

695

:

and she wanted to give people the

feeling of passing with a disability,

696

:

like, okay, what does that feel like?

697

:

And so she modified a game of set, which

is a matching game that you play with

698

:

cards, where she gives everybody a list

of, uh, five handicaps, five disabilities,

699

:

five challenges, you know, depending on

the way you want to sort of think about

700

:

them and, um, five abilities maybe.

701

:

Um, and, uh, and they, they, they greatly

constrain the way that you play the game

702

:

and then you roll a die and you get one.

703

:

And no one knows, uh, what your

disability is, but as you're

704

:

playing, they may become apparent.

705

:

So, in the game, you can match sets

of things that are colored purple,

706

:

or you can match sets of things

that have particular shapes in

707

:

them, or certain numbers of things.

708

:

And one of the handicaps may

say, you can't pick up anything.

709

:

That is purple or you can't match things

with this particular shape in a river

710

:

and these disabilities as you continue

to play Because everyone is looking at a

711

:

shared set of cards and everyone can see

all the sets if you consistently don't

712

:

call out a set Because it has something

to do with your disability Someone else

713

:

can guess it and they can take half your

points and then you're out of the game

714

:

and this idea of like there Being a public

information, you know common understanding

715

:

about what is going on and that you can't

participate in that sort of dialogue

716

:

because of this, this way of seeing, um,

was so immediately apparent to people

717

:

that, that the fear of getting caught

out is really, it's very high, right?

718

:

And the way that you get to that

idea is, is by thinking about what

719

:

am I really trying to communicate

with this notion of passing?

720

:

You know, what is it?

721

:

Passing is really about

the fear of not passing.

722

:

You know, and so it's really almost

like a philosophical introspection

723

:

into the goal of the game.

724

:

And the easiest way for me to get started

is often, yeah, just put something

725

:

down on some cards, try to come up

with a little bit of randomness using

726

:

dice or card passing rule, and just

like, just try to get to that feeling.

727

:

Um, doing a very basic 2D prototype,

uh, where the motion, is movement

728

:

was one of the first things that we

did with journey, just like sit down

729

:

and build a top down 2d prototype of

multiple units moving in a space and

730

:

then separate those people and only

let them talk by hitting the space bar.

731

:

And when they hit the space bar, it

just says, Hey, Hey, and that's it, you

732

:

know, limited amount of communication,

limited amount of information, but

733

:

you have to collaborate to get out of

this, like, kind of top down dungeon.

734

:

That was the first.

735

:

Prototype for journey for for Luna because

we knew we wanted the touch and like

736

:

the idea of sort of getting in touch or

like transformation to be center to it.

737

:

We started off with folding paper

origami and talking about what folding

738

:

origami felt like, and then moved from

origami into systems of untangling

739

:

lines like the puzzles in the game

are actually about kind of cats cradle

740

:

type scrambles, which has that similar

feeling of kind of disambiguation

741

:

or like finally seeing the shape.

742

:

in the lines, because paper folding is

actually really dry and kind of hard to

743

:

do in, in, uh, in a video game context.

744

:

But that idea of sort of sorting through

the shape and figuring it out, almost like

745

:

untangling a necklace or like a pile of

string, that feeling is really satisfying.

746

:

And it's also, you know, Uh, we found,

really, it lies at the base of relaxation.

747

:

A lot of things people do, like,

with their hands to relax, like,

748

:

say, knitting, you know, or quilting,

they have this quality of, like, kind

749

:

of mindless movement of the hands.

750

:

And like, I really love that idea of,

like, being able to get into that zone of

751

:

just moving things to see what you see.

752

:

So, I think a lot of it is

about really staying minimal.

753

:

The worst thing you can do when you start

a game design is think about what the

754

:

world will look like and over focus on

the art or think about what the story

755

:

will be and over focus on the narrative

because you can write a really great

756

:

narrative and then have crappy movement

mechanics, crappy, you know, jumping or

757

:

whatever it is that you end up using.

758

:

It's a gaminess will be bad.

759

:

Gaminess will be bad.

760

:

Exactly.

761

:

So like you really need to think about

that mechanics to aesthetics pipeline.

762

:

What is the feeling going to

be because of what you do.

763

:

And then I, someone actually asked me

this in class the other day, like they

764

:

said you never mention the art style

when you're talking about this stuff.

765

:

And I was like, that's because the art

style is secondary to understanding why

766

:

the player is doing what they're doing.

767

:

Because if it's just art style, then,

I mean, then why not make it a film?

768

:

You know, why not make it a picture?

769

:

You know, you could convey the

same feeling in a still image.

770

:

If it's really a game, then it has

to be about what the player is doing.

771

:

And a film shouldn't be

just about art style either.

772

:

I mean, that would, that would

also be kind of a cop out.

773

:

Well, you know, I'm actually

kind of a fan of, like, really

774

:

deeply philosophical films.

775

:

Films with almost no dialogue,

like, uh, uh, Solaris, the original

776

:

Solaris, I love that movie.

777

:

I love that movie.

778

:

I love that movie so much.

779

:

It's one of my favorite

movies of all time.

780

:

And, you know, even like the

Blade Runner with no voiceover,

781

:

like the director's cut, love it.

782

:

Like I really, really love, um,

atmospheric photographic films,

783

:

you know, that are very much

about the sequencing of images.

784

:

And the way that that makes you feel

beyond, you know, beyond dialogue.

785

:

And it's one of the reasons why,

like, games like Journey or Luna, I've

786

:

always been so adamant that we not

lean on dialogue, if at all possible.

787

:

It's not in the art style, it's

in the, it's in the structure.

788

:

Yes, it's in the, yeah, actually,

he has a really fantastic book, um,

789

:

uh, I think it's called Painting

in Time, if I'm not mistaken.

790

:

Uh, I'm gonna forget now, but, um, It's

a beautiful book about the process of

791

:

coming up with these films that he's made

and I mean Tarnovsky isn't just a genius.

792

:

So it's, it's very like, it's

almost like reading Werner Herzog.

793

:

It like has such a, has

a deep quality to it.

794

:

Right, it's penetrating.

795

:

But um, yeah, no, it's very

much about juxtaposition.

796

:

Yeah, penetrating, exactly.

797

:

That's a great word for it.

798

:

In a way, you helped me actually discover

what I think the answer is, but my

799

:

question was about, You know, for, for

maybe, uh, game designers who aren't,

800

:

you know, whole cloth coming up with

a new concept but working within the

801

:

constraint of a, of a pre existing,

you know, design or a pre existing, uh,

802

:

brand, how can they, you know, bring

some of that in to what they're doing?

803

:

So when I first started working at

The Sims, I was just working on The

804

:

Sims 2, I was working on an expansion

pack open for business and responsible

805

:

for object design and working with

all the animators and engineers to

806

:

make objects for the expansion pack.

807

:

And it was like honestly one of my

favorite jobs of all time because

808

:

I got to play my favorite game.

809

:

And I didn't have any direct reports,

and so I could just go to work,

810

:

do awesome work, and then go home

and play more games, and so it was

811

:

really low stress, high impact.

812

:

But then eventually I got promoted to

work on a new version of The Sims for

813

:

the Wii, which hadn't been released yet.

814

:

So this was one of EA's very

first Wii titles called MySims.

815

:

And MySims was supposed to be a game that

would be more casual than The Sims, and

816

:

because it was a console title and it

was going to be coming out on the Wii,

817

:

we really wanted it to resonate in Japan.

818

:

Spent a lot of time in Tokyo and

Kyoto interviewing girls who could

819

:

potentially become Sims fans.

820

:

But you know, Sims hadn't really

picked up in Japan, so there was

821

:

like a lot of discussion about why.

822

:

And one of the things that I decided

to do when I was working on the

823

:

game, um, my friend Joe Marish,

Maris actually was the one that,

824

:

um, talked to me about doing this.

825

:

He said, this is the core flow of.

826

:

The Sims, and he kind

of drew that out for me.

827

:

And then he was working on Sims

Castaway, which is one of my

828

:

favorite Sims, uh, offshoots.

829

:

And he's like, this is the core loop

of Sims Castaway, which is really about

830

:

finding objects and crafting stuff.

831

:

And he was like, what's your

version of the Sims going to be?

832

:

What's the core loop going to be about?

833

:

And I went and I looked at both of those

loops, and I decided that, like, the

834

:

aspect of He had really focused on this

idea of doing more with less, because

835

:

The Sims is generally about buying stuff.

836

:

And he was like, well, okay, if

you're on a desert island, you have

837

:

to build everything from scratch.

838

:

So the whole game is going to be

about this cool crafting system.

839

:

And for me, I, I really loved

the idea of crafting and I had

840

:

really loved Animal Crossing.

841

:

So I was like, what if this is a really

cheapy style version of The Sims,

842

:

but instead of crafting for yourself,

you are crafting for other people.

843

:

You were giving things away.

844

:

What if the fundamental loop of The Sims

is In this game wasn't about getting more

845

:

stuff to get promoted, but it was about

giving away things to people who wanted to

846

:

move to the town so they could basically

start their own little business there.

847

:

So you start, you start off with a

little town that's empty and then

848

:

as you basically collect items and

build furniture for these businesses.

849

:

These little people out of like pixel

blocks, basically, they can start

850

:

their own little setup in your town and

they come to the town because you've

851

:

basically welcomed them with these gifts.

852

:

And the more you do that, the

more diverse your town gets,

853

:

the more interesting it gets.

854

:

And then there was the second part

of the design, which fortunately

855

:

didn't ever get built out due to

just platform constraints, but I

856

:

had really wanted it to be online.

857

:

So that you could have a little

town of my sims, who were the ones

858

:

that you had chosen to support.

859

:

Like, let's say you really

liked the gothy ones, and um,

860

:

you really liked the foodies.

861

:

That was another set of characters

you could get in your town.

862

:

Um, you could keep, uh, like a sportos

sim that was really into athletics,

863

:

and then just send them to your

friend's town to hang out with the

864

:

other sportos, and then they'd come

back and they'd bring cool presents.

865

:

So that the idea, sort of, which is very

typical for me now that I look back on

866

:

my career, was that your town could be

Special for you in the sense that like

867

:

you would put together the characters and

the little play sets that you liked But

868

:

it could also be inclusive of somebody

that was just kind of different And

869

:

still celebrate their difference in a

way that didn't compromise your vision

870

:

for what the town should look like.

871

:

And I really, really like that idea

now that I, now that I've gotten

872

:

some, some distance from the game.

873

:

It's been a long time since it was built.

874

:

You know, even though that feature never

got implemented because the Wii didn't

875

:

ship with an online capacity right away.

876

:

Um, I still, I still think that this idea

of giving things away, um, to, to build

877

:

a diverse community and then letting

people come and go as they please as

878

:

a way of getting sort of revitalized

and, and rejuvenated and bringing their

879

:

creativity back to the, to the center is,

those are just really interesting ideas.

880

:

And I, I always think like, I'd love

to do another game like that where the

881

:

online really was a strong component

and you could, you could kind of care

882

:

for a little group of creatures or

people or whatever, and still have them.

883

:

not need to all be the

same in order to get along.

884

:

In fact, actually, if you think

about it, Watan, which is one of

885

:

the games that we're making here at

Phenomena, is a little bit like that.

886

:

I think a lot of Keita's vision is

similar in that it's about a lot of

887

:

different people, little people that are

all different, but they all get along.

888

:

to create, ultimately to

create a shared common goal.

889

:

And so, you know, those kinds

of ideas, you can work them

890

:

into a very big franchise.

891

:

You can even sort of do a franchise split

and still have it remain core, like the

892

:

Sims games are still Sims games, but you

can kind of look at the core loop and

893

:

then just make an adjustment for feeling.

894

:

And like, in my case, this was

an adjustment to make the game

895

:

feel more focused on community.

896

:

And building community.

897

:

Um, I think that that's

actually a really fun exercise.

898

:

And I often tell young designers

who are like, Oh, I really want

899

:

to make my own game, but I have

to go get a, like, a regular job

900

:

working on someone else's game.

901

:

I always tell them that when I first

started, that was one of the best things

902

:

that I did in my career, was working

on a game that someone else had already

903

:

designed, just learning how games work.

904

:

Seeing how the sausage gets made,

you know, and like, and like getting

905

:

good at meeting my commitments

and like managing my time.

906

:

Like those were so much more important

than my gigantic game ideas at the time.

907

:

Um, and I think it's something that we

overlook, especially early in our careers.

908

:

I just had a similar conversation with

someone who was, who was out of school

909

:

and wanted to, to connect with me.

910

:

And it's like, hey, in two, three,

four years, you can, you can still

911

:

revisit those ideas, that company.

912

:

Uh, and you'll be so much better equipped.

913

:

Oh, totally.

914

:

Yeah, there's so many little things that

you don't learn in school, you know?

915

:

Um, it's im it's so important to be

able to communicate with integrity

916

:

and honesty and to let go of your own

failures and other people's failures,

917

:

not hold grudges against yourself or

other people on your team, not start

918

:

fires, you know, all these things.

919

:

And, you know, not to say that I

have, you know, Nailed any of those.

920

:

I mean, I'm just as bad as anybody else

when it comes to being totally honest

921

:

and confronting things when they present

themselves as opposed to putting it off.

922

:

But, but those are the things that

you have to learn through practice.

923

:

And it's like you can take a

class in it in school, but you

924

:

can't really learn it in school.

925

:

You have to learn it on the ground

and being able to do your job

926

:

really well while learning that,

I think is really important.

927

:

Well, I actually wanted to ask you a

little bit about that because, you know,

928

:

with everything you do, the teaching,

running the company, designing and all

929

:

the, community work you do, you must

be some sort of productivity guru.

930

:

And I'm just curious, uh,

how you manage all that.

931

:

Well, you know, it's funny.

932

:

I'm actually teaching a class right

now about, um, it's called game design

933

:

experience, and it goes with a, uh,

uh, game programming experience class.

934

:

It's two classes that are

taught at the same time.

935

:

And so they have class on Monday,

Wednesday, Friday with my friend Nathan.

936

:

And then they have class on

Tuesday, Thursday with me.

937

:

And it's all the sophomores in the,

the bachelor's programs that we

938

:

have at And so they're just getting

ready to go from doing solo games

939

:

projects into a group game project.

940

:

And at the beginning of class,

um, every time we have class, I

941

:

have them all sit still and then

I say, Okay, how are we doing?

942

:

And we all say together, I'm doing the

best that I can because that's really,

943

:

you just have to assume that everyone

is doing the best that they can.

944

:

I think for a long time, because I'm

someone who loves lots of things and

945

:

I love to give back and I love to be

social and I love to sort of like learn

946

:

and also to teach and to travel and all

and do all these things, make stuff.

947

:

I definitely always felt like, Oh my gosh,

there's a million things I want to do.

948

:

I'm going to run out of time,

never going to have enough time.

949

:

I'm always rushing, rushing, rushing.

950

:

But as I've gotten older, I've actually

learned that the most important

951

:

thing is just taking the time.

952

:

To focus on the goal and to

think what, what am I doing?

953

:

And then to do that as best as you can.

954

:

And so I make them use a tool which

I just started using last year, um,

955

:

on the advice of one of my, my older

mentors, Bob, uh, Bob Bates, who's an

956

:

old, uh, game designer, uh, it's like a

very, very classic, uh, you know, text

957

:

based adventure game designer, who's

like really kept up with the industry

958

:

and written some really great books.

959

:

And it's.

960

:

She's still, I think, one of,

one of the, one of the more

961

:

influential people in my career.

962

:

Um, him and, and Noah Falstein, both.

963

:

And Bob was saying like,

this book is so great.

964

:

And the book is called

The Productivity Planner.

965

:

And it's, you can buy it on Amazon.

966

:

It's like 25 bucks.

967

:

It's black and it, I get the one

with, uh, it's undated so you

968

:

can put your own dates in it.

969

:

And it's a process.

970

:

By which every week you write down

the top five things that need to

971

:

get done that week, and then the

next five, and the next five.

972

:

And I kind of think of those

as being urgent and important,

973

:

uh, urgent and important.

974

:

So really like stuff that's like kind of

crisis mode or needs to get done really

975

:

quickly, it just popped up out of nowhere.

976

:

Then the stuff that is like you need to

do it because if you don't do it in the

977

:

long run it's going to be a real pain.

978

:

And then the stuff that like you

really think is important to do

979

:

in your life and you want to plan.

980

:

So like yeah.

981

:

You bucket those things out for each

week and then on every day, you sit

982

:

down in the morning and you write down

the number one thing that you want

983

:

to get done that day and you don't do

anything else until you get it done.

984

:

And the process is very helpful for me.

985

:

It really helps me each week think about,

okay, where am I totally in terms of like

986

:

All of the things that I'm managing, which

of them are kind of boiling up to the

987

:

top, which one are generating tasks that

need to be planned, and which ones are

988

:

like things that really need to sort of,

you know, get into the flow of motion so

989

:

that they can move forward, unblock people

and make other opportunities available.

990

:

And I use that pretty religiously.

991

:

It's very, very helpful for me.

992

:

I've also gone through periods of really

scheduling in my life out in like a

993

:

Google spreadsheet where I kind of

maintain those buckets more manually.

994

:

and more granularly, like,

granularly over the course of a day.

995

:

But, um, I find that when I'm doing

it with the Google spreadsheet, I

996

:

get a little bit fussy, and kind of

like, picky, and because you can type

997

:

really quickly, you kind of jam stuff

in there without really thinking about

998

:

it, whereas having to write it longhand

in the notebook forces me, and there's

999

:

limited space, and I don't like to have

scratches in there, and like, things

:

00:52:03,635 --> 00:52:05,175

written out, and then crossed off.

:

00:52:05,175 --> 00:52:07,445

So, I really kind of try

to really be patient.

:

00:52:07,655 --> 00:52:11,435

Particular about what I write down and

then at the end of the week, there's

:

00:52:11,445 --> 00:52:14,165

process by which you evaluate all

the things that you were supposed to

:

00:52:14,165 --> 00:52:15,945

do and you look at your throughput.

:

00:52:15,955 --> 00:52:21,075

So for every task, it says, how many

pomodoros, which is a 25 minute segment

:

00:52:21,075 --> 00:52:23,315

of time did I spend on this task?

:

00:52:23,315 --> 00:52:27,415

And so pomodoros kind of allow you to plan

for 25 minutes of work and then a bathroom

:

00:52:27,415 --> 00:52:29,035

or a water break or a stretch break.

:

00:52:29,545 --> 00:52:32,705

And it's a very healthy way also

to sort of portion out your time.

:

00:52:32,705 --> 00:52:36,275

So when I was younger, especially

when I was programming in grad

:

00:52:36,275 --> 00:52:37,285

school, I would sometimes just.

:

00:52:37,475 --> 00:52:42,665

Stay at home in my pajamas for a week,

you know, drinking coffee and not sleeping

:

00:52:42,665 --> 00:52:46,265

and programming and just being totally

obsessed with making something work.

:

00:52:46,265 --> 00:52:46,605

Right.

:

00:52:46,665 --> 00:52:51,165

Um, and as I've gotten older and really

learned what my strengths are, um,

:

00:52:51,165 --> 00:52:55,405

and what rejuvenates me, I found that

it's really bad for me actually to be.

:

00:52:55,705 --> 00:53:01,015

Locked away for days at a time just

to answer an email or just drawing or

:

00:53:01,035 --> 00:53:05,655

just programming or just, you know,

you know, making plans and schedules.

:

00:53:05,665 --> 00:53:07,835

Like if I, if I really do

that, I get a lot done.

:

00:53:07,835 --> 00:53:12,285

But by the end of it, I feel

really, um, Inhuman burned out.

:

00:53:12,585 --> 00:53:12,845

Yeah.

:

00:53:12,845 --> 00:53:13,985

Just, just, just, yeah.

:

00:53:13,985 --> 00:53:14,665

Just like, yeah.

:

00:53:14,735 --> 00:53:17,255

Crusty and fried and like not happy.

:

00:53:17,445 --> 00:53:22,935

And you know, one of the core things about

phenomena when we started the company was

:

00:53:22,935 --> 00:53:25,205

that Martin and I really wanted to build.

:

00:53:25,775 --> 00:53:31,265

A deliberately developmental organization

that allowed all of us to get to the

:

00:53:31,265 --> 00:53:35,115

place where we could plan our days,

not just based on what needed to

:

00:53:35,125 --> 00:53:38,185

be done, but on what was important

to us and what our values were.

:

00:53:38,205 --> 00:53:40,205

And I think it is really hard.

:

00:53:40,205 --> 00:53:40,705

I'm not going to lie.

:

00:53:40,705 --> 00:53:43,435

It's really hard to run a commercial

business that way because.

:

00:53:43,570 --> 00:53:47,660

So many other businesses that you're

interacting with are not run that way.

:

00:53:47,830 --> 00:53:53,030

Like you'll get email from a publisher,

you know, midnight on a Sunday and you

:

00:53:53,030 --> 00:53:55,680

know, get in, in the morning and think,

Oh my God, I didn't ask that email.

:

00:53:55,680 --> 00:53:59,810

It's like, well, of course you didn't,

you were asleep, but you know, when you,

:

00:53:59,810 --> 00:54:01,959

when you encounter other work cultures.

:

00:54:02,270 --> 00:54:06,480

that are toxic and that don't

actually deal with goal setting and

:

00:54:06,850 --> 00:54:11,660

specific measurable throughput kind

of analysis towards those goals,

:

00:54:11,870 --> 00:54:15,010

then it's very difficult to maintain

your own process in the face of that.

:

00:54:15,010 --> 00:54:19,330

But if you do it yourself personally,

it's easier to lead by example and to show

:

00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:23,610

others that it does work and that you can

have effectively a really fulfilling life

:

00:54:23,690 --> 00:54:26,930

where you do the things that are important

to you because they're important to you

:

00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:31,100

and you let go of the things That maybe

you might assume you need to do that.

:

00:54:31,100 --> 00:54:34,450

You don't like, I don't really spend

a lot of time watching television.

:

00:54:34,480 --> 00:54:35,910

I don't watch television.

:

00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:37,470

I've never seen game of Thrones.

:

00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:40,390

Like I don't, I don't watch TV.

:

00:54:41,470 --> 00:54:42,970

I haven't, I'm sure it's great.

:

00:54:42,980 --> 00:54:45,720

And I'll binge watch it at some

point when I have shipped my game

:

00:54:45,720 --> 00:54:47,930

and like, and have a whole summer

to lay around and do nothing.

:

00:54:47,930 --> 00:54:50,600

But, um, but I also don't really miss it.

:

00:54:50,740 --> 00:54:53,700

Because I read obsessively, I read tons.

:

00:54:53,700 --> 00:54:56,240

I, I bought like 30 books

off of Amazon this weekend.

:

00:54:56,250 --> 00:54:58,650

I, I, I buy used books like crazy.

:

00:54:58,910 --> 00:54:59,940

I have a huge library.

:

00:54:59,940 --> 00:55:01,200

I have a library here at the office.

:

00:55:01,200 --> 00:55:03,530

I have a library at my house

in Santa, in Santa Cruz.

:

00:55:03,530 --> 00:55:05,600

And I have a library in

my house in San Francisco.

:

00:55:05,620 --> 00:55:07,530

Cause I have two little

apartments that I rent.

:

00:55:07,800 --> 00:55:08,930

I just fill them with books.

:

00:55:08,940 --> 00:55:12,010

Like I love reading and I

can read on my own time.

:

00:55:12,260 --> 00:55:15,590

And I can read across a variety of

subjects, and then I can create little

:

00:55:15,590 --> 00:55:20,180

maps between the subject matter in a

way that is just so pleasing to me,

:

00:55:20,490 --> 00:55:23,630

whereas with watching television, or

like, YouTubes and stuff like that,

:

00:55:23,890 --> 00:55:27,690

I just can't get that experience,

like, I'm really about ingesting

:

00:55:27,690 --> 00:55:29,000

information through books, so.

:

00:55:29,220 --> 00:55:30,370

You're about depth, Robin.

:

00:55:30,540 --> 00:55:33,090

Yeah, I'm, I'm all about

like connecting things.

:

00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:36,050

And like for me, the experience of

watching television is an experience

:

00:55:36,050 --> 00:55:38,760

of shutting off and just absorbing

what someone else is showing me.

:

00:55:39,010 --> 00:55:40,000

It's like watching a movie.

:

00:55:40,150 --> 00:55:44,315

I love to do it, but I don't do it that

often because I would much rather Be

:

00:55:44,315 --> 00:55:49,055

spending my time learning and being

creative with what I learn and kind

:

00:55:49,055 --> 00:55:50,665

of connecting that to other people.

:

00:55:50,885 --> 00:55:54,675

I just recently did a, um,

a survey online called Viya.

:

00:55:54,675 --> 00:55:58,575

It's the Viya character

analysis, like creativity survey.

:

00:55:58,655 --> 00:56:00,345

And you fill out a bunch of questions.

:

00:56:00,345 --> 00:56:02,375

It's like anything, you know,

like a Myers Briggs or whatever.

:

00:56:02,815 --> 00:56:07,970

But, um, you know, it tells you kind

of what your, What your values are,

:

00:56:07,970 --> 00:56:09,830

like what your top strengths are.

:

00:56:10,030 --> 00:56:14,150

And when you do the self analysis, um,

it's interesting, but then you can also,

:

00:56:14,180 --> 00:56:18,150

if you want to, you can have other people

do it for you, which is also interesting.

:

00:56:18,170 --> 00:56:23,010

Um, and my top strengths for my own

analysis were creativity, kindness,

:

00:56:23,190 --> 00:56:27,040

love of learning, curiosity, and

appreciation of beauty and excellence.

:

00:56:27,280 --> 00:56:30,500

I'm like, when I look at that

list, I think, yes, that's exactly

:

00:56:30,760 --> 00:56:32,010

That's exactly what I value.

:

00:56:32,250 --> 00:56:35,350

That's like what I want to put

in front of myself every day.

:

00:56:35,550 --> 00:56:38,280

Like, I don't really spend a lot of

time reading Twitter because it's mostly

:

00:56:38,280 --> 00:56:41,950

negative and it's people complaining

or it's distracting and silly.

:

00:56:41,980 --> 00:56:44,970

And like all of the Twitter

feeds that I follow are artists

:

00:56:45,100 --> 00:56:47,820

or people that talk about art or

people that talk about science.

:

00:56:47,860 --> 00:56:51,130

So there's the love of learning and

the appreciation of being excellence.

:

00:56:51,430 --> 00:56:53,090

And occasionally I follow podcasts.

:

00:56:54,220 --> 00:56:58,410

Because I'm interested in learning and,

and I'm curious about weird subjects.

:

00:56:58,490 --> 00:57:01,840

Um, it's not that I'm not active and that

I don't have opinions about how we should

:

00:57:02,040 --> 00:57:05,560

treat one another and how much kindness

is required to make the world a more

:

00:57:05,560 --> 00:57:10,410

peaceful and loving place, but I just

don't immerse myself in knowing about it.

:

00:57:11,615 --> 00:57:16,895

Because I know that it's there and my best

effort is to resist through my creativity

:

00:57:16,895 --> 00:57:18,415

and my kindness and my love of learning.

:

00:57:18,415 --> 00:57:18,665

Right?

:

00:57:18,915 --> 00:57:22,755

So I really encourage everybody

who wants to be productive and do

:

00:57:22,755 --> 00:57:25,975

a lot to sort of sit down and ask

themselves, what are their goals?

:

00:57:26,060 --> 00:57:27,050

And what are their values?

:

00:57:27,080 --> 00:57:30,990

And then to just always be asking

yourself, like, this week, like, what can

:

00:57:30,990 --> 00:57:32,930

I do to get myself closer to those values?

:

00:57:32,950 --> 00:57:38,370

How can I drive my game design or this job

that I have to do right now or, you know,

:

00:57:38,370 --> 00:57:42,320

this relationship that I'm in towards

the things that are about my values?

:

00:57:42,635 --> 00:57:46,365

If everybody did that, and everybody

was kind to children, the world

:

00:57:46,365 --> 00:57:47,415

would be a much better place.

:

00:57:47,515 --> 00:57:49,505

Well, I think that says it all, Robin.

:

00:57:49,515 --> 00:57:54,045

We're gonna, we're gonna put, we're

gonna put links to the, uh, Productivity

:

00:57:54,055 --> 00:58:00,445

Planner, and to the VIA StrengthsFinder,

uh, on, on the blog post, and also,

:

00:58:00,475 --> 00:58:05,615

um, you know, we'll, we'll put links to

Phenomena, and, um, Any anything else

:

00:58:05,625 --> 00:58:09,285

where we you know, people can find and

connect with you It was great having

:

00:58:09,285 --> 00:58:13,335

you and talking to you and learning

from you and being inspired by you Thank

:

00:58:13,335 --> 00:58:15,035

you very much for coming on the show.

:

00:58:15,245 --> 00:58:16,185

Thank you so much for having me.

:

00:58:16,185 --> 00:58:19,165

It was really great to talk

to you So there you go.

:

00:58:19,175 --> 00:58:20,245

That was robin haneke.

:

00:58:20,275 --> 00:58:23,635

I had a great time having her on the show.

:

00:58:23,665 --> 00:58:24,505

I learned a lot.

:

00:58:24,515 --> 00:58:31,645

I was inspired I really appreciate it

Her artistic approach, her emotions first

:

00:58:31,645 --> 00:58:34,715

approach, and her empathy first approach.

:

00:58:35,145 --> 00:58:38,495

So, all those pieces meant something

to me and were something that

:

00:58:38,495 --> 00:58:42,845

I took away in terms of how I'm

going to approach some of my work.

:

00:58:43,330 --> 00:58:46,430

And, uh, and I hope that you will as well.

:

00:58:46,710 --> 00:58:49,980

And if you are getting something out

of these interviews, if you're finding

:

00:58:49,980 --> 00:58:53,440

them useful, if you're finding them

inspirational, if they're impacting

:

00:58:53,440 --> 00:58:57,470

the work that you're doing, I would

love to hear about it, either shooting

:

00:58:57,470 --> 00:58:59,150

me an email, Jordan at bright, black.

:

00:58:59,890 --> 00:59:01,810

co no M or.

:

00:59:02,105 --> 00:59:07,135

If you would write a review on iTunes

and you can do that obviously just by

:

00:59:07,155 --> 00:59:12,265

heading to iTunes and doing it the usual

way or if you head to playmakerspodcast.

:

00:59:13,295 --> 00:59:16,135

com, you'll find links there to do it.

:

00:59:16,375 --> 00:59:20,915

You'll also find links to everything

that came up in the talk with Robin.

:

00:59:20,915 --> 00:59:24,955

So all the game designers, all the

games, the productivity planner

:

00:59:24,955 --> 00:59:28,725

that she mentioned, all that

stuff is linked to right there.

:

00:59:28,725 --> 00:59:29,645

And you can also.

:

00:59:29,845 --> 00:59:33,585

Find out how to get in touch with Robin

because we linked to her Twitter and

:

00:59:33,595 --> 00:59:38,175

also to Phenomena, the company page

where you can see what they're up to.

:

00:59:38,175 --> 00:59:42,155

And the art for their games is fantastic.

:

00:59:42,375 --> 00:59:43,725

So take a look.

:

00:59:43,755 --> 00:59:44,985

I think you'll dig it.

:

00:59:45,655 --> 00:59:49,025

Don't forget to sign up for the

Playmakers Insiders newsletter.

:

00:59:49,025 --> 00:59:50,695

You can also do that at playmakerspodcast.

:

00:59:51,595 --> 00:59:52,075

com.

:

00:59:52,365 --> 00:59:54,845

You'll get weekly updates

about upcoming guests.

:

00:59:55,330 --> 00:59:57,660

And some bonus information as well.

:

00:59:58,400 --> 01:00:03,180

In the last episode that I put out, or

in the last letter that I put out, I was

:

01:00:03,180 --> 01:00:07,930

recommending a very cool newsletter that

I've discovered called Indie Weekly.

:

01:00:08,160 --> 01:00:09,580

You can find it at IndieWeekly.

:

01:00:11,030 --> 01:00:15,620

co, again, no M, and, uh, it's

a really cool newsletter where

:

01:00:15,620 --> 01:00:19,570

you can get like a quick weekly

update with game industry news.

:

01:00:19,830 --> 01:00:23,310

They talk about some of

the notable releases.

:

01:00:23,755 --> 01:00:27,265

They talk about funding a little

bit, and they keep you up with

:

01:00:27,285 --> 01:00:28,545

big picture stories as well.

:

01:00:28,545 --> 01:00:33,465

The last, uh, newsletter that I got

talked about how Battles on Net is

:

01:00:33,465 --> 01:00:37,695

having their first non Blizzard game,

uh, come to it for distribution.

:

01:00:37,695 --> 01:00:40,845

So that's a new, a new thing, where

Bungie is gonna have Deathmatch.

:

01:00:42,165 --> 01:00:43,765

So that's, that's kind of crazy.

:

01:00:43,795 --> 01:00:45,695

So anyway, IndieWeekly.

:

01:00:45,695 --> 01:00:47,315

co is a, is a cool newsletter.

:

01:00:47,315 --> 01:00:51,415

You might want to check it out and

PlayMakers Insiders is pretty cool too.

:

01:00:51,425 --> 01:00:52,955

You can check that out

at PlayMakersPodcast.

:

01:00:54,275 --> 01:00:54,675

com.

:

01:00:55,015 --> 01:00:58,565

That's all I've got for

this episode of Plymachus.

:

01:00:59,195 --> 01:01:00,435

I swear that joke's going to get old.

:

01:01:00,535 --> 01:01:01,605

That is going to get old.

:

01:01:03,530 --> 01:01:04,680

All right, I'll see you

in the next episode.

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