Episode 9

How to Create UX that Drives Retention & Monetization, with Alfonzo Burton

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Alfonzo Burton is one of the top designers in UI/UX. His insight and unsurpassed design techniques have been utilized by many of the top grossing games in the marketplace to date, many achieving the 100-Million-dollar mark. Alfonzo has founded two design companies that have both been a driving force in UI/UX for the past 15 years. He worked as a Director of UI/UX for both Glu, and Pocket Gems and then moved on as CEO/Creative Director to begin Uxmagicians Inc, a San Francisco-based full-service user experience design agency that focuses on gaming experiences and digital products. Visit www.playmakerspodcast.com to get access to the full blog post for this episode and much more!

Transcript
qw:

Welcome to PlayMakers.

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I'm your host Jordan Blackman

and you know the drill.

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Every week I interview a game

industry expert and I go deep with

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them on what they know to pull away

things that are going to be useful

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to you in what you do while also

giving you a bigger, wider picture.

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This is a way for you to break out of your

box while also going deeper into your box.

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You might call it a para

box, or not, I don't know.

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But this week we have Alphonso Burton.

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We're talking UX.

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He is a master on this.

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subject.

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There's a lot to learn.

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Stay tuned.

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So here's the deal with Alfonso.

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I was looking for a UX expert to

work with on a project and we ended

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up talking to each other and I was

so impressed with this guy that I

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invited him on the show on the spot.

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So, Alfonso, The deal with Alfonso

is that he has worked on several

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free to play mobile games that

have broken the 100 million mark.

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He typically has several, you know,

apps in the top 100 grossing on

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the App Store at any given time.

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He was a UX director at both Glue

and Pocket Gems, and now he's

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the CEO and creative director.

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At UX magicians, and they're a full

service UX design agency kind of

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deal, and they will rock your UX.

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If you're looking for that sort of thing.

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And even if you're not, you are going

to get a ton out of this episode because

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we talk about misconceptions about UX.

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We talk about what Alfonso thinks

are the keys to a hit game.

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What UX really is, because

it's not what you think.

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And, uh, when to innovate in the UX

and when to stick to things that work.

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We talk about machine zone and

why their games, uh, do so well,

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even though they're kind of fugly.

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Now, real quick, before

we get into the interview.

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I want to say a couple of things.

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One.

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If you haven't subscribed to Playmakers

Insiders, you got to do that.

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Go to playmakerspodcast.

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com and you can sign up there.

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You won't miss any episodes and we have

exclusives and you're going to find

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out how to ask questions in advance

and all sorts of cool stuff like that.

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So head over to playmakerspodcast.

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com and become an insider.

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Also, if you're digging the show, if

you're getting a lot out of it, Please

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write us a review on iTunes and tell

us what you want to hear on the show in

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the future, what guests, what topics,

that is how we bring you what you

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want, and that's also how we know that

we're doing a good job, and it's also

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how I grow the show, really need those

interviews, it makes a big difference,

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so for those of you who are doing

them, I really, really appreciate it.

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And with that, here is Alfonso.

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Alfonso, thank you so much

for being on the show.

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I'm really excited to have you on.

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Yeah.

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Thanks for having me.

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I really appreciate you having me on here.

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I'm excited about it.

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Well, you know, we had the opportunity

to connect a little bit professionally

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and just talking with you.

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In that context, I was so

excited by what you had to say

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and your insights were so good.

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I was like, you've got

to come on the show.

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So thanks for agreeing to do it.

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I appreciate it.

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I really appreciate it.

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So I know that you started in web

and then made the transition to kind

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of mobile and game and now like.

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You know, console game UX too, I think.

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What was that translation like for you,

and, and you know, what were you kind

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of learning yourself as you go, and what

did you bring to the table from Web?

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This is the thing about the Web.

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The Web taught us everything

about how to engage, uh, users,

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or players, if you would.

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Um, because in the early days of Web,

Uh, we learned about banner ads and the

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whole point of banner ads was to get

people to click through and you wanted

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the highest click through rate, so we

did probably thousands of banner ads.

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Uh, and then the point was to get them

to the websites we were building, and

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when they came to the websites, we

had to keep them engaged, we had to,

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uh, lead them through the website.

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This is all before it was

even called user experience.

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And one of the things that we

found in early web is that games

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were the things that were the

sticky pieces of the websites.

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And so it got really good at one, the

acquisition of users into a website

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and then how to keep them there.

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I remember seeing banner ads

that were like little games.

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Oh yeah, I mean, we did everything

from click throughs to, hey, win this

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car, to little games, I mean it was,

uh, banner ads are still used a lot,

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but not like it was in the early days

of the web, and, uh, just learning

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how to engage players was huge, and

it translates one to one in games.

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And so most of everything that I

learned from the website of the

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business, uh, when we get into games,

games is just more features, but it's

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the same way that you engage players.

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You just have a little

more features to tap on.

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So it's a one to one translation for sure.

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And was there anything that, that

you kind of didn't expect coming into

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games, or that, that surprised you?

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Uh, no, cause we, I've always been a

fan of games, and we've built so many

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games, we've probably built 300 games for

AOL back when the Flash games were big.

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So we did casual games before they

were even called casual games.

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So, when we got into the mobile space

and into the console space, we, we, we

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love games, so we've always played them.

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We've always sat down and played

them, and we're like, oh, they should

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do this, or this should happen, or

this is confusing, or this is weird.

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So Once we got a chance to get our hands

on the UX, it was just like, do what

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we intuitively thought, and it works.

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And it just started working, and

games started going number one, and,

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you know, making a lot of money,

and so it was a nice transition.

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And what about going the other way around?

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Like, are there kind of misconceptions

about UX that you've encountered

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over and over again with your clients

and on projects you've worked on?

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This is one of the best

questions in the world.

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I love this question.

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There is the huge misconception,

and this is the one thing about it.

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Everyone thinks that they can do UX.

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Everyone.

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VPs, GMs, producers, executive

producers are like, Hey, we can do GMs.

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And I always relate it to this

point, is that you rarely see

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anybody go to the lead engineer and

say, Hey, I figured out the code.

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I know how to do this AI, right?

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It's hands off.

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They kind of just leave the, the,

the engineers to do what they do,

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but they have that same thought about

UX and they feel like, Hey, cause I

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can see it because the color's blue.

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I want a green or I've

seen it somewhere else.

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They know, and so the biggest

misconception is UX is a process.

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It's a process of coming up with

the right solutions and, and you

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have to go through that process.

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You can't just say, Hey, do

this because you have no idea.

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If you change one thing or you

make something deep in a game,

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it can affect the entire product.

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And so, that is the biggest misconception.

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You really need people that understand

how to engage players in a digital

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world to create top grossing hits.

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So, in other words, people don't

realize that it actually is a process.

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Exactly.

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And it's, it's, because it's so easy

to look over someone's shoulder,

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especially a UI designer or someone

that's working on the game, and they

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say, oh, well, let's move that to the

left, or let's move that to the right,

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or, Uh, we, here's a feature we want

to add, put that button here again.

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We got, why would that button exist there?

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Do we need that button there?

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You know, and it's, uh, there's a long

process of testing and putting it in and

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testing again with live users to really

figure out if it makes sense to be there.

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And those who don't do that typically

don't reach the top 150 gross in a mobile.

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That's interesting.

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Cause yeah, one of the things I'm, I also

wanted to ask you about was sort of best

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practice versus innovation and talking

about it as a process, I think shows

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the kind of where I think you might go.

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Right.

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In terms of, you know, you can't

answer that in abstraction.

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It's sort of about the process of testing.

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And that's the one thing I love about UX,

it is a process, it's an architectural

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process, it is like engineering something

and there's a core pillars, and if

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you just do the process, it works.

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And so, you know, Uh, for, for us, what

we've seen over the number of years,

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um, you know, having 11 top grossing

games and two still sit in the top 100

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grossing, uh, right now is that there's

three core pillars to creating a hit.

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Um, first it's gotta be fun.

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You gotta tell us what they are.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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First pillar is, it's gotta be fun.

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You've gotta have a fun core mechanic.

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Um, if you have a fun game, It is so much

easier to make money with a fun game.

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Um, so And let's say you got a team and

like a couple people think it's fun,

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a couple people don't think it's fun.

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How do we decide?

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Well, it's all about testing.

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So it's all about numbers, right?

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So if you have four people and it's

half and half, well, you got to

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get some more people in the room.

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Um, hopefully you can get a

couple thousand into the game, uh,

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with some simple tasks or even a

few hundred, um, into the game.

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And again, if you have really good

designers and people on your team.

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You can tell if the game is fun

or not, you know, there's some bit

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to it, you know, if it's that, you

know, split down the middle, user

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testing will tell you everything.

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Uh, just put it in the hands of

some strangers and they'll tell

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you the truth about your game.

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And so, that's a, that's a

core pillar of doing that.

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The second pillar is a deep economy.

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I can't stress enough.

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You have to allow players

to be able to invest deeply.

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You know what a great game

was, is uh, Smashing Roads.

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You ever played Smashing Roads?

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Yeah.

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There you go, that's a great point!

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One of the funnest games

ever, Smashing Roads.

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It kind of takes like the GTA

mechanic of getting chased around.

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Um, and it's a fun game, it's a great

core mechanic, but it doesn't have

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any demonetization strategy to it.

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You just buy premium cars and

you just keep buying the new car.

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That gets old after a while.

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It feels like a toy rather than a game.

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That's exactly right.

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So it shot up to the

chart because it was fun.

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But then it's nowhere to be found

because there is just nothing there

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to sustain the game as a business.

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So you need deep economy.

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And that's a, there's

a lot to that as well.

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The third thing is great UI UX.

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And that's where we come in is

that if you have a great economy.

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And yet players can't access that deep

economy because it's confusing or it's

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all over the place or it's just ugly.

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No one's ever going to

play your deep economy.

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So you have to have great UI UX to

access all those wonderful features.

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And so that's why UI UX is so important.

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I tell people all the time,

nobody comes into a game and says,

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Hey, your code looks fantastic.

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No one cares about the code.

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You don't see it.

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No one ever comes in and says, Hey,

your deep systems are fantastic.

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No one says that either.

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They either say it's beautiful

and it works well, or it does not.

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And so that's why UI UX is

so important to get it right.

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Right.

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And, and, you know, we're in a world

now where, you know, the free games

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that people download on their phone have

budgets in the multi million dollars.

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Right.

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So, uh, you know, one of the, one

of the ways you can at least, you

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can at least compete is to have a

beautiful looking, uh, UI and UX.

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It's so, it's so true.

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And the, and the, the tricky part about

it is that you spend, let's say, a few

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million dollars on a game, and you're

literally giving it away for free.

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You had better make sure that that UI,

UX, and that gameplay is fun, and you

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have an, a deep enough economy, or, uh,

You know, you're going to be closing

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your doors pretty quickly, being that

you're not going to make any money.

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You know, this term UX, I've

always thought it kind of

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funny, because what isn't UX?

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What is not part of the user experience?

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So that's, that's a great question, right?

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So the user experience is everything.

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How I coin it, I look at it like this.

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When players put your game down

and they walk away, do they

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think about your game again?

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That's a good experience.

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Everything within that

game was the experience.

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A lot of times when we're doing

consulting, it is very siloed and they

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say, Hey, we just want you to focus on the

UI or we want you to focus on the flow.

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But we know as designers and UX experts

that it is everything and so part of

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what we do is we'll talk about the sound.

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We'll talk about the economy.

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We'll talk about the game balancing.

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We'll talk about the fun of the game.

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And so even though we are very focused

narrowly on the overall flow, we

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focus narrowly on the overall UI.

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We definitely know if it's fun, and we

definitely know if the economy is deep,

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or it's right, or it's gonna make money.

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And so, UX is very broad, uh, but when

you, when it boots on the ground, you

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know, it can be very narrow as far as just

doing UI, doing buttons, doing interface,

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transitions, and then doing overall flow,

how you get from one page to the next.

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I have to ask you a little

bit more about UX process.

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So you've, you've given us the

three keys to succeed from your

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point of view, which is awesome.

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What is your perspective

on the process of UX?

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How would you lay that out?

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It's a fantastic question.

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It's tried and true.

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I will tell you the secrets

of the magic man right here.

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Nice.

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So, if you have a project, and

you're gonna do the UI UX, the first

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thing we always say is, figure out

what it's going to look like first.

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The game design can be being figured

out, the economy can be figured out,

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they're still working on the gameplay.

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Uh, but if you come in and you figure

out what the game is going to look

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like, all the buttons, the theme, and

the style, you have a locked product.

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Then, once you have that locked

style, and what we do is go to

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two or three different styles.

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We already know.

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We're not gonna try to come out the

first time and say, Hey, here it is.

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This is the first chance we did.

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It's the first time we tried.

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We already know we're gonna do

at least two or three times.

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Because you wanna make sure that you've

tried every idea you could possibly try.

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Mm-Hmm.

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. Mm-Hmm.

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. So you can choose the best one.

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You don't wanna just do one and

then try to edit it down until

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everybody sort of likes it.

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Get the one that everyone loves.

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Not that one.

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Everyone's just trying to like, so like an

iterative prototype style approach to ui.

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You.

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You have to do that.

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You have to do it.

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And I say, and, and the thing is,

you have to let the design process

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have its day, have its saved.

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It just takes time.

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So you won allot that time because once

you do it, you never have to pivot.

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So many games pivot.

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'cause they get halfway through the

game and people get tired of looking

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at it where it didn't quite fit, where

it's too heavy or something like that.

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If you just do all the hard work up

front, you'll never have to pivot again.

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Uh, the second thing, once you get

your actual look and feel, then

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you start working on the overall

flow and the overall layout of each

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every page, because now, once you

do a layout, you can actually apply

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the approved design style to it.

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So you're actually doing UX and UI

at the same time, and a lot of teams

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I see, they'll do all the wires

and they'll have all these layouts.

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But yeah, they still don't know what

their product needs to look like,

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and then they hire a UI designer

to come and paint in the boxes.

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The challenge with that is that

sometimes design informs function.

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So it could literally change

the entire page based on the

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design you're going to do.

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So you need to do those together.

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Um, and so that is the

simplest process to do it.

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Uh, and it's tried and true, and if

you do it every single time, the ad

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agencies do it, that's how they get

you to click on things, uh, that's

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how websites are done, that's how apps

are done, um, now we're applying that

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same process to games, it just works.

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So the mistake is to lay out a bunch of

wireframes and then Kind of lay a UI over

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it and the right approach is to figure

out the look that the whole UI is going to

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have up front and then you can move those

pieces around kind of within the, uh, for

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the needs of that specific part of the UI.

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Exactly.

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Because while you're figuring out

the look, um, what we do is we take

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the hardest system in the game and

we figure out the look for that.

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So now you have a look and you know how

your product is actually going to work.

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Once you have those two together,

then you just, you know, apply

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it to the rest of the game.

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It's just that simple.

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It becomes more of like an autopilot.

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You can actually hand it off to a,

more of a junior UI UX designer to

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carry that design throughout the game.

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Uh, the game, because you've figured

out all the hard stuff up front.

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So it sounds like, you know, you'd

love it if people would call you up

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really early on in their development.

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That's one of the things.

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People like to call, hey, we

got the game figured out, we

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got all this stuff figured out.

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And then at the end,

they started calling UIX.

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We're like, okay, now we're

painted in the corner.

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We have all these technical

limitations and all these limitations.

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And so, we love pre greenlight.

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Like, the sooner you get UI UX involved,

the more likely you're not going to pivot.

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And so, You gotta get it up sooner.

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That's one thing I love about that

we've seen as a trend in games is that

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before UI was an afterthought, now it

is a thought that's coming up front.

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It still needs to be earlier and earlier

in the process, and a lot of teams are

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like, hey, when do we bring the UI UX in?

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Um, and I always say

bring them in right away.

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I mean, we come in on some projects

pre green light just to create an

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overall look and feel to see if the

executives want to buy in on a game.

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It's hard to buy in on the game, you don't

know what it looks like, but once you

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figure out what it looks like, at least

some concepts, you can start figuring out

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if it's something you want to invest in.

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And you know, even, even

consumers and customers are

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experiencing things sooner, right?

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Whether it's Kickstarter or

Steam, Greenlight, you know, so

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I would, I would want to bring

you in before doing those things.

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It's a great point.

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We've been on some projects where it

was right after green light and we

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literally come up with two or three

looking fields and then we test them.

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I mean, what a great idea.

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Why don't you test whether or not the

style is going to work early on so that

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you know what you're working on for the

next year is actually going to work.

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I mean, that is proper UI UX and

it's a little harder for some

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teams to do more than others.

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More people are comfortable

with that than others.

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Uh, but that, if you did it every time,

your shots on goal and your percent

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chances of having a top grossing

hit would increase drastically.

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Okay, so I asked some people

in the Playmakers community

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for some questions for you.

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I said, hey, I'm, I'm, I'm going to be

talking to one of the top UX designers

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:

with multiple games in the top 100.

364

:

What do you want to know?

365

:

And I got a couple questions from them.

366

:

So, the first one was actually

specifically about the kinds of UI that we

367

:

see in games like what Machine Zone does.

368

:

Right.

369

:

You know, and it's pretty ugly, right?

370

:

And you think, gosh, like,

couldn't they do Better.

371

:

Why don't they improve it?

372

:

So, you know, what's up with that?

373

:

I love it.

374

:

I love it.

375

:

So first of all, you got

to look at machine zone.

376

:

You've got to give credit

where credit is due, right?

377

:

They've been in the

top 10 for a long time.

378

:

So when we say bad versus good,

um, you know, it's kind of,

379

:

it's kind of relative, right?

380

:

It's good because it's one of the most

successful games that ever been created.

381

:

I understand what people mean by it's bad.

382

:

Like if you get into it,

it's hard to figure out.

383

:

It's hard to engage with.

384

:

It actually doesn't even

look that very good.

385

:

But the thing is, is that

they built that game.

386

:

And so when you first build a game,

um, it is what it is when you go to

387

:

market and their UI is a product of

their success because everyone learned

388

:

it the way it is, because everyone

knows how to play it like that.

389

:

If they were to drastically change it.

390

:

You can piss the whole community off

and that affects your monetization.

391

:

It is a huge risk that once players

figure out your game to change things.

392

:

We've seen that in Windows,

we've seen that in iOS, we've

393

:

seen that in everything.

394

:

If you change it midway after everybody's

learned it, It's just frustrating

395

:

at that point, so it's a product of

their own success, and so the best

396

:

thing that they could do is create

a new IP and try to figure that out.

397

:

That's why I say UI UX up front is so

critical, because if you get it right and

398

:

then you're successful, well that's right.

399

:

But if you get it wrong and then it's

successful, then you're stuck with

400

:

what you have, and then it's harder to

have new players come into the game,

401

:

because it's just hard to understand.

402

:

So that's the thing about the

machine zone and other games.

403

:

But look at something

like Clash Royale, right?

404

:

Phenomenal.

405

:

That game is the funnest game ever.

406

:

I was highly addicted.

407

:

I just had to delete it off my phones.

408

:

I was spending too much.

409

:

And it was taking over my life,

but it has a great UX, has a great

410

:

UI, and it has a great gameplay.

411

:

They don't really need

to change it very much.

412

:

There's still some issues with it that

I, I have some problems where they could,

413

:

uh, you know, they had to, you know,

shoehorn in some features later on.

414

:

But overall, it's a fantastic

experience and it looks gorgeous.

415

:

And so, they did it right

the first time and they don't

416

:

have to go back and redo it.

417

:

So with something like MachineZone,

you know, now that they're kind

418

:

of stuck with what they've got.

419

:

But I wonder, I'll tell ya, I wonder

if like, it's sort of bad on purpose.

420

:

Like it's confusing so that they

can kind of lead you through it the

421

:

way that they'd like more easily.

422

:

The only reason I don't say

that is because I know a

423

:

lot of the designers, right?

424

:

I know them personally, I'm trying to

hire them, I look at their resumes,

425

:

I see their portfolios, typically

nothing is done bad on purpose.

426

:

Things are only done quality as the

person that's working on the product.

427

:

So whoever it was That was an artist.

428

:

They're a passionate artist.

429

:

They love to do this stuff.

430

:

They love to design.

431

:

They've been in this

business for a long time.

432

:

And when they sit down and do a project,

they're very passionate about it.

433

:

So they did the best they

could do on that project.

434

:

I don't mean bad on purpose, but

like that the, the, you know, the

435

:

multitude, the insane multiplicity of

options on every screen, for example,

436

:

is like, you know, creates a situation

where it's kind of easy to say, but

437

:

this is the one we want you to do.

438

:

Right right now again that just goes back

to because they are successful it's hard

439

:

to change things and because good UX is

really a lot about categorization and how

440

:

you prioritize things and so it's kind

of like Clash Royale like it's a good

441

:

UI but you'll see some places where they

just had to stick something in there.

442

:

Because there was nowhere else

to put it, because they didn't

443

:

think about it long term.

444

:

A lot of people, when they build

games, are thinking, Hey, if it

445

:

lasts six months, we're happy.

446

:

And that's the experience that you get.

447

:

When we design games, we design it so

that it would last 24 months, at least.

448

:

And so, these systems aren't

expandable, because people really don't

449

:

understand UX that well, or haven't

done the process in the right way.

450

:

And so, they're just, they're

stuck with what they have, and

451

:

they just, I call it stickers.

452

:

You just keep putting stickers in

your game, because you add features,

453

:

and you put it wherever you want.

454

:

And by the end You know, two years

into the game, it's just like,

455

:

buttons everywhere, you know?

456

:

Clash of Clans was like that, if you look

at that, there's just buttons everywhere.

457

:

Successful game, but man, I mean,

there's a lot of stuff that just

458

:

kind of stuck on there, because

that's where, you know, they didn't

459

:

know where else to put the feature.

460

:

Well, from, from, you know, my experience

on Frontierville and Castleville, I

461

:

can tell you, like, any game that's

a couple years old, UX experience

462

:

has probably gone down in a lot of

respects, at least if you're a new user.

463

:

Right.

464

:

Because over time, they

just have to introduce.

465

:

New features which means new buttons

that weren't planned for and also

466

:

just more that's exactly right And

it's not just games that are doing

467

:

any digital experiences like that.

468

:

Like if you look at the new iOS, right?

469

:

There's some really great things about

it But there's also some new frustrating

470

:

features that got introduced because

they're just trying to pack more into

471

:

it So You know, that's a, that's a,

that's the UX challenge, you know, of

472

:

a UX designer, is to get that right.

473

:

Um, it all starts with

a good core, though.

474

:

That's why you want to do it up front,

better, create good systems that, that

475

:

are, that are, uh, we call expandable.

476

:

Scale, the systems

themselves out of scale.

477

:

Here's a good example, such as a sliding

side to side scrolling menu, right?

478

:

If you have 10 weapons and you scroll

left to right, With that weapon that works

479

:

because there's only 10 you're only going

to have to scroll three or four times But

480

:

if the plan calls for a hundred weapons

That's not a good system to lead with

481

:

you need a new system And you need some

filtering and you need some tabs and you

482

:

need to be able to categorize those things

That's what I mean for the difference

483

:

between one system versus another

system There are systems in ux that are

484

:

scalable and some are not very scalable

at all So you got to figure that out up

485

:

front And you don't necessarily know.

486

:

Maybe, maybe you don't expect weapons to

be a huge monetization feature, and it

487

:

turns out that's what ends up selling.

488

:

So you're gonna need to suddenly

have a lot more than you expected.

489

:

Well, that's where a good UX designer

comes in, because if someone tells

490

:

me we're making a game with weapons

and their core monetization is the

491

:

weapons themselves, they're like,

Oh, we're only gonna create ten.

492

:

I already know that that's wrong.

493

:

I've seen it.

494

:

I've seen it too many times.

495

:

I'm gonna say no.

496

:

You know, if these are successful,

this is your core monetization.

497

:

So we need a system that's going

to be able to expand because that's

498

:

the only way you're making money.

499

:

And so, that's what, that's what

I mean by the three pillars.

500

:

You really have to

understand all those pillars.

501

:

You can't just come in and say, hey,

I'm going to create something beautiful.

502

:

It actually has to be functional and work.

503

:

And you have to be able to

think about those things.

504

:

It would, it would be pretty

interesting for like, um, machine

505

:

zones, it's game of war and then

they have that mobile strike, right?

506

:

It would be interesting to kind of

analyze the differences from a UI

507

:

standpoint between those two games,

like what they did from one to the

508

:

other, uh, from what they learned.

509

:

It's always good to do that.

510

:

We did that back with the Deer

Hunter and the Dino Hunter.

511

:

We learned a lot from Deer Hunter.

512

:

Deer Hunter went on to do 200

million plus, and it was a pretty

513

:

fun game, and then Dino Hunter,

we took some of the learns from

514

:

that and put it in Dino Hunter.

515

:

Uh, and I know Machine

Zone does the same thing.

516

:

It's one of those things where

you want to Extend the games you

517

:

have your product line, but you

want to break anything, right?

518

:

But there are a lot of learns but

even if you play mobile strike You'll

519

:

see that they've adopted a lot of the

problems that they had in the original

520

:

game And there's some things that are

improved on Uh, but again, I mean, I

521

:

think that was a, a good opportunity

to actually improve on the systems.

522

:

Um, but I already know

how it works internally.

523

:

There are people who say,

Hey, less risk, it's better.

524

:

We don't want to, you know, spend all

this money and not have it be successful.

525

:

So usually you adopt those problems,

uh, because you don't think they're

526

:

a problem because there's some

success that's being generated.

527

:

And so The devil you know.

528

:

That's a great point right there.

529

:

It's awesome.

530

:

Another question that came from the

Facebook community is, when people

531

:

think, especially on mobile, I think,

a lot of people are thinking about,

532

:

oh, it's a bunch of best practices.

533

:

You know, if I had a bunch of best

practices, and I think to some

534

:

extent you've already pointed out,

Well, no, it's also a process.

535

:

How do you decide when to

kind of follow what's worked?

536

:

Like, you know, just like we were

sort of saying with MachineZone,

537

:

and when do you try to innovate

and do something new and different?

538

:

It's a great point.

539

:

It's a great point.

540

:

I have some good answers

for how to think about that.

541

:

So one is that there is a process of

onboarding new players, um, or new

542

:

users if you're in the app world.

543

:

And so the idea is that you don't

want to have this whole story,

544

:

this whole five minute tutorial on

how to teach them about your game.

545

:

And so any system that you can take

from, um, other places that people

546

:

already know, it's Good idea to use those

systems on a kind of big global scale.

547

:

Uh, what I mean by that is like

the hamburger menu, for instance.

548

:

Everyone knows what that is.

549

:

You tap that, might not

know what's inside of it.

550

:

Uh, but you know, if you tap

that, you're going to access

551

:

some other features, right?

552

:

And that's something

you don't have to train.

553

:

You don't have to tutorialize.

554

:

You don't have to have an arrow bouncing.

555

:

Click this for the menu,

those types of things.

556

:

And so it's like, why not use that?

557

:

Millions of people use it, so when you

use something like that, you're already

558

:

getting access to a very broad audience

to be able to know how your game works.

559

:

And so, you kind of

balance those things out.

560

:

Now, when you get deeper into the

game and you're on something, a

561

:

page like, Hey, I want to socket a

rune to my sword to make it better.

562

:

Well, that, there's no real core, you

know, standard system for doing that.

563

:

And so why not create something fun,

something no one's ever seen before?

564

:

Um, something that they can learn

and engage in and have a lot of time.

565

:

I mean, there's no sense in keeping,

if you copy a rune system from another

566

:

game, they're just going to go, well,

this is just like this game, right?

567

:

There's no real brand differentiation.

568

:

And so that's how we look at it.

569

:

If it's core flow and core navigation to

get in the game and understand it, Okay.

570

:

It's a wise idea to use systems that

people already know, but when you

571

:

start getting into the nitty gritty

gameplay, that's where you want to

572

:

start differentiating yourself and

innovating and creating new things to do.

573

:

You know, you wouldn't want

to go out there and just copy

574

:

Clash Royale's gameplay system.

575

:

They've already done it, you know.

576

:

How can you improve upon that?

577

:

I have a similar way that I

look at design sometimes, which

578

:

is Let people play the game.

579

:

This is for like mainstream

mobile mass market stuff.

580

:

But let people play the game

without having to learn anything.

581

:

Make it really easy to just play

and enjoy the basic mechanic.

582

:

But then always add some elements

that you're going to have to learn

583

:

and study so that there is a depth

there, but the depth is optional.

584

:

That's exactly right.

585

:

And that's why I say UI UX

part of it is it's just access.

586

:

You're accessing the fun.

587

:

If I created a brand new type of

menu that no one's ever seen or know

588

:

how to work, Well, now that you've

created friction to access the fun,

589

:

it's just going to take them that much

longer to get involved into your game.

590

:

So, remove as much friction as you can,

get into the game, have some fun, play

591

:

a little bit, then they'll be like, hey,

I like this game, I want to engage with

592

:

these other systems, and then they'll

take the time to figure out how they work.

593

:

So, you mentioned to me, when we were

chatting before the interview started,

594

:

that you're just launching a new

website, so I'd love to hear about,

595

:

about that, and what you're doing

with UX Magicians, and, and all that.

596

:

Yeah, we're totally excited.

597

:

So after several years in business

now, we launched our first brand new

598

:

website, and we are now officially

a full service UI UX agency.

599

:

And what that means to us is that we

can come in, we do all the research,

600

:

we do all the UI, we do all the UX.

601

:

But now we're actually coding.

602

:

Part of our process is that we've been

handing a lot of PSDs to engineers,

603

:

and they have to kind of figure out

how things transition and animate.

604

:

But because of that, a lot, a

lot gets lost in translation.

605

:

So now we're just doing end to end.

606

:

We're gonna design it, we're gonna

figure it out, and then we're gonna

607

:

build it and put it into Unity or

whatever engine that the, the, the

608

:

game team is using so that we can

control then that entire experience,

609

:

do all the animations, all the special

effects, all the 3D, all of that stuff.

610

:

And so we got a brand new

website showcasing that.

611

:

Uh, I was super excited.

612

:

We got a bunch of new projects

that we did, like the WWE 2K

613

:

17, uh, now that we're getting

some mobile and some other, uh.

614

:

Games we're doing a working with a lot

of Asian publishers Because they have a

615

:

lot of hits over there and they want to

bring them to the Western market, right?

616

:

Oh, they're UI UX is really

different than the Western market.

617

:

Yes, that stuff doesn't work here But

and vice versa a lot of our you know,

618

:

the Western UI UX doesn't work over

in Asia And so part of that is is

619

:

surfacing that on our website that say

we're doing a lot of You know, East to

620

:

West games and games from West to East.

621

:

So we're really excited about that.

622

:

We got a brand new newsletter, so

there's a form at the very bottom of

623

:

the footer to go and sign up for our

newsletter, um, so people can just keep

624

:

up to date with what we've got going on.

625

:

And where do they go?

626

:

www.

627

:

uxmagicians.

628

:

com Nice.

629

:

So, you know, one, one more quick

question before I let you go, Alphonso.

630

:

Uh, you mentioned 2K and I know that

you, you worked on the console version.

631

:

I'm kind of curious, I know there's some

things that you might not be able to

632

:

talk about, but just in that experience

and on making the transition to console,

633

:

are your clients on console seeing the

conversions and kind of the improvement

634

:

that your mobile clients have also seen?

635

:

Yes, like I said before,

it's just a digital product.

636

:

This process works across the board, and

so we came in, if you look at the 2K16,

637

:

that version, it was a good game, but if

you go and try to play with some of the

638

:

metagame and the systems, it's very hard

and confusing to figure things out, and so

639

:

we completely retooled and optimized the

system, um, and the community responded.

640

:

We've gotten nothing but positive

feedback on the new UX and how it

641

:

works a lot better, it looks a lot

better, and to the point where You

642

:

know, we're able to work on the next

installment of that with those guys.

643

:

And so it's pretty exciting.

644

:

Those guys over there are

very talented over at 2K.

645

:

Uh, we're really excited to

work with them and it's going

646

:

to be a really good case study.

647

:

Um, especially as console, we believe

and we feel like console is actually

648

:

going to move to a free to play.

649

:

And it's going to be great

for us because we get it.

650

:

We get, you know, old school console.

651

:

We get new school free

to play for console.

652

:

And, uh, you know, it's going to work

and it's going to drive more revenue, uh,

653

:

for those premium and AAA console games.

654

:

Well, the sports games are kind of

leading the charge in that, in that way.

655

:

At least they're doing sort

of a premium plus, right?

656

:

Yes.

657

:

Yeah, exactly.

658

:

But yeah, there's, there's

still, you know, it's still,

659

:

UI UX is very new in games.

660

:

I mean, you wouldn't think so.

661

:

You'd think it was, you know, very

mature, but it's very new and to the

662

:

point where, you know, with the 2k, it

was really the first time they brought

663

:

UI UX in upfront, uh, and it paid off

with dividends, you know, and, and

664

:

so now they're trying to adopt that.

665

:

And that's one of the things

we really want to do is we want

666

:

to see that process change.

667

:

Industry wide because we know it does

work and so when now we have some

668

:

case studies to show how well it works

actually nice Well, thanks Alphonso

669

:

so much for coming on playmakers.

670

:

I think you gave us so much to

think about which is awesome I think

671

:

people should definitely check out

your newsletter at uxmagicians.

672

:

com and Look forward

to to working together.

673

:

Thank you for having me.

674

:

I really appreciate it.

675

:

Thank you so much for your time Love

your show And, uh, look forward to seeing

676

:

more, uh, more great people on your show.

677

:

Talk more soon.

678

:

Thank you so much.

679

:

I had a great time in

that chat with Alfonso.

680

:

I hope you took a lot away from it.

681

:

Alfonso's work is incredible.

682

:

And if you want to see his work

or learn more about Alfonso,

683

:

Head over to playmakerspodcast.

684

:

com and in the episode notes we will have

links to his company and to him and you'll

685

:

be able to take a look at his work and get

in touch with him or get in touch with me.

686

:

It's all right there.

687

:

Also the links to any games that

we talked about go there as well.

688

:

While you're there consider

signing up Playmakers Insiders.

689

:

It's where it's at.

690

:

We have a lot of Fun on the show.

691

:

We have a lot of fun in

the newsletter as well.

692

:

That's it for this week.

693

:

I'll see you next week with another

great interview with an industry expert.

694

:

You've been listening to playmakers.

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