Episode 10

Game Design Process Lessons from a Master, with Dave Rohrl

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Dave Rohrl has more than 22 years experience designing and producing online games for a mass audience.  Over the course of his career, he has led design or production on more than 50 games and overseen or consulted on dozens more and held senior positions at Pogo, PopCap, Zynga, and Playdom. In this episode, we discuss the design process, especially as it pertains to preproduction on casual games. Listen to learn why he encourages bad code and art early in the process and many of the tactics he brings to bear in order to achieve "fun" fast. Visit www.playmakerspodcast.com to get access to the full blog post for this episode and much more!

Transcript
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Hey, what's up?

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You're listening to Playmakers Podcast.

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I'm your host, Jordan Blackman.

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And on every episode, I interview

a game industry legend or luminary

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to bring information to you.

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That's going to help you do better

on your project, in your discipline,

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in your domain, and to get a bigger,

wider view of the game industry.

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This week, I've got Dave Roll,

known as the mobile game doctor.

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He has a lot to share about designing

efficiently and effectively.

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mobile, that's coming up.

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Here we go.

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Dave Roll has held senior level

positions and I'm talking about

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executive positions at companies like.

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Playdom, PopCap, Zynga, Pogo,

you know, there aren't that

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many companies like that.

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Those are the biggest players in

that space, and Dave's been there.

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If you play Plants vs.

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Zombies, as you will learn in this

interview, Dave is Crazy Dave, or at

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least the inspiration for Crazy Dave, in

those games, and We get into some really

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interesting information about what Dave

has learned in his many, many years doing

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casual about designing efficiently and

producing efficiently, minimizing design

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risk, finding the fun early soft launch

process, all that stuff we get into it.

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So if you are working on a mobile

project on a casual project.

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or just want to get some best

practices from that field, you're

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going to get that in this episode.

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Dave is someone that I wanted to have

on the show because he is someone that I

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personally admire as a designer and who

I have gone to in the past with specific

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design issues that I'm working out.

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When I've wanted some outside

input and he's been very

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helpful to me in that capacity.

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So I have a lot of respect and

trust in Dave and his skills and

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his background, and also in his

attitude and professionalism.

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And I think you will get a taste

of all that in this interview.

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Now, before we get to the interview,

I just want to mention that if you are

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enjoying the show, if you're getting

something useful out of it, please do

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share with anyone you know who would enjoy

it, who would enjoy this episode or any

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of the other episodes that we've done.

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You can also head to iTunes and subscribe

and write us a review, which is awesome

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because that's how I find out who

you want on the show, what's helping

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you, what you like about the show.

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And it also helps support the

show and get the word out there.

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And if you just want to reach out

to me directly, you can do that.

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Jordan at bright, black.

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co I want to hear about the struggles

that you're having in your project, the

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topics that you want covered on the show

and the guests that you want on the show,

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because this show is here to help you.

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It's for you.

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This is my way of serving the game design,

production and development community

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and the business community as well.

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So, I will leave it at that and let's go

talk to Dave Roll, the Mobile Game Doctor.

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Well, thanks Dave.

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Welcome to PlayMakers.

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It's great to have you on.

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Thank you so much for having me, Jordan.

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It's a pleasure.

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I've had the chance to work with you

on a couple of things and I really

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admired your skills and your creativity.

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Coolness and your honesty.

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I want to start with just getting into how

you got into the industry I know you've

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you've been in games for over 20 years.

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What brought you in and

what got you interested?

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So I actually got into games,

I guess Relatively late.

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Uh, so it was right around the time.

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I was 19 Which means I had a couple of

careers before that, um, you know, after

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college spent about five years working

in nonprofits, uh, saving the world.

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Oh really?

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As you can see, mission accomplished.

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What, what kind of nonprofits

were you, were you into?

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I did some environmental work,

I did some diversity work, and

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I did some anti nuclear work.

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Sort of, you know, off at the Bernie

Sanders end of the political spectrum.

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That's amazing.

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Yeah, you know, it was really Fun work,

but I had a very interesting experience

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in a couple of different nonprofits where

I had an opportunity to really kind of

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rise up in the ranks and take on a lot

of responsibility in a very senior post,

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and I just couldn't get excited about it.

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And so the second time that this

happened, I sort of took a giant step

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back and said, uh, okay, if I can't get

excited about growing my career here,

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it's probably not the right career.

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And that actually led me to

take stock of what do I love?

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What am I passionate about?

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And I've been actually kind of obsessed

with games since I was very, very little.

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Like, I've been obsessed with games since

literally before there were video games.

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I was the little kid who wanted to

have their parents play one more

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game of gin rummy before bedtime.

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Right, um, and you know got

together with my friends for games.

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Not too many kids like that anymore.

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Well, this is true because we've we've

opened up, you know, kind of solo

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entertainment So much right the the rate

at which entertainment pours into our

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lives at the moment is is staggering

right just the amount of content that's

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out there to interact with totally the

idea at all that social gaming would be a

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distinct thing rather than just you mean

like what games are shows how how much

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we've done that yeah I got into a couple

semanticists at the GDC talks about people

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talking about how games had forever been,

you know, Multiplayer, and it was only in

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the last couple of decades they've been

single player, and I'm, I pulled them

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aside and I said, Actually, dude, you

know, single player video games evolved

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from puzzles, not from games, right?

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But that's, that's kind

of semantic and nitpicky.

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Um, but I always loved games,

and I always loved technology.

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Um, and I also took a look around in,

you know, this was the late 80s, early

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90s, and said, You know, do I think I

can make a living making board games?

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Board games are a

tremendous passion of mine.

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I've got about 700 around the house.

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Oh my gosh.

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Actually, yes, kind of

taking over the house.

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I'm selling off some because

I, I literally can't fit

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them in the shelving anymore.

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If you want to put a link to your

board game collection sales, you

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know, maybe we can help you out.

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There you go, will do.

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Um, yeah, I'm selling them off

via auctions on boardgamegeek.

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com, which if you were as geeky about

board gaming as me is a great resource.

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So, but I took my love of games, my

love of technology, um, and you know,

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I had been playing recently some games

that really excited and inspired me.

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Games like Sid Meier's Pirates and

Railroad Tycoon in the original SimCity.

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And that combined with my kind of lifelong

love of strategy games made me say, okay,

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well, look, I really want to do this.

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I want to participate in

this, this act of creation.

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And so that's what pulled me in.

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It's around 27 when I

decided I want to get there.

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It took me a couple of years of building

the right professional skills, uh,

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to transition from nonprofits into

technology and then into games and

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broke in in 94 and have been having

a lot of fun with it ever since.

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Where did you break in?

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Uh, so my.

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My first job in gaming, I did a

very short term engagement for an

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educational, like, courseware developer

that was part of Simon Schuster.

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Um, but my first real job in

gaming actually was as a senior QA

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engineer at The Learning Company.

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down in Fremont.

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So the folks that made the original, uh,

Reader Rabbit and Clue Finder's titles.

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And, uh, I spent about six

and a half years there.

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It seems like quite a few

people got, got started there.

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There were a lot of smart

folks inside that company.

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They did some really, really

interesting games, too.

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And I think it was kind of a, Good and

really interesting place to launch in

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some ways just because um, making games

for kids Means that you really need to

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learn to make something that's fun for

somebody who isn't you Right, right and

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understand an audience externally and

realize that these guys inherently are

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going to hit usability issues that you

never will That they're going to hit a

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threshold of confusion that, you know, you

just won't because you're in your 30s and

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you're making something for six year olds.

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And so as it happened, when I went to Pogo

in:

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makers, especially concentrated there at

Pogo, um, were folks who had been making

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kid software, just because they had that

experience of how to keep things simple.

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How to work for an audience

that isn't you right?

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Um, i've definitely seen a lot of

developers struggle with that Yeah,

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and also kind of how to how to work

lean So when I started in the 90s,

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there were really no online games

to speak of right in the early 90s

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You had some muds that was about it.

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Um, So games were mostly delivered

on a CD ROM and, you know, they

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were super dependent on the

video card you had in your PC.

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A lot of kids sort of tended

to work on hand me down PCs.

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Not a lot of memory, not a lot of

processor power, not very good graphics.

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So you kind of learned to, to work lean.

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And to really focus your design and to

kind of not hide behind rich assets.

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So it sounded, sounds like some of

these skills working, working lean and

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being able to, you know, understand

how to think like your user who might

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be different than you, these might've

given you kind of a jumpstart when you

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started working in casual mobile games.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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I mean, I think that those are

really valuable skills for.

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Any designer, regardless of what

you're doing, um, I think, you know,

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generally in sort of down market

platforms, there's more value to kind

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of understanding the leanness and going

asset like, um, but really knowing

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like how to focus on gameplay, how to

deliver that really strongly without.

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Relying on big flashy assets is your

friend regardless of whether you're

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making games for smart watches or you're

making games for next gen consoles

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Yeah, well, I want to get into that

with you But before we do, you know,

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you want you went on to work at pogo and

popcap zynga and play them In a number

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of like very senior positions, who

were you learning from along the way?

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Who were, who were the people

and what were the projects where

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you, you know, built up that the

skill set that you have today?

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Yeah, well, I mean, after two decades

in the industry, I sort of had a lot of

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teachers that have had profound impacts.

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Um, At Pogo, I think it was interesting.

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There was, um, there was definitely a

management hierarchy, but there were

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three or four really strong designers.

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And, you know, none of whom

are celebrities, right.

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But three or four really strong designers

around the same points in their career

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that all came in at the same time.

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And I feel like just by working

together, by, um, building a culture of

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critique, by, you know, collaborating

and by challenging each other.

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Um, we really, I, I learned a ton, um,

and, you know, I don't know, maybe, maybe

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I slip streamed off those guys or maybe

they learned something too, um, but, you

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know, those were, uh, Troy Whitlock, who

not only created a lot of great stuff

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at Pogo, uh, He's a very successful

designer at, uh, Disney, created, uh, Star

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Wars Commander, uh, among other things.

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Uh, and Todd Kerpelman, who

actually now is working a bit

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on the other side of the fence.

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I think he's, last I heard, working at,

uh, Google, um, kind of working as an

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advocate for game developers, right?

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Trying to help them, uh,

give them a voice inside the

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technical development of Android.

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Uh, kind of help them with their issues.

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You know, Todd and Troy were the guys

who really brought prototyping to Pogo.

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Uh, before that it had been

much more of a waterfall shop.

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And so I learned a lot about

prototype driven development there.

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Um, at PopCap, I got, you know, exposed

to, um, Jason Kopalka, and, uh, who

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was, you know, one of the co founders

of PopCap, and, uh, really one of

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the great intuitive game designers.

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Um, I think, um, he wasn't, necessarily

the best at like breaking down his

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process, but watching him work and

learning from that was amazing.

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So I worked with him.

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Um, George fan actually was one

of my employees at PopCap, the

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creator of plants versus zombies.

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Oh, wow.

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Yeah, actually.

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Um, you know, you're, you're

talking to crazy Dave.

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To, to the original

inspiration for the character.

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No way!

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You're the inspiration for Crazy Dave?

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I am the original Crazy Dave!

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It's eight years later and

there's still a zombie on my lawn.

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Um I was just, uh, looking at,

um, the new card, card game.

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Yeah, I checked that out

early in soft launch.

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I'm really eager to, to see how it's

come together in its final version.

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But yeah, there goes 14 minutes and

59 seconds of my 15 minutes of fame.

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Right there.

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So George is a fabulous

and intuitive designer.

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Soup beer Sudu, who was the, uh,

the producer and designer on Peggle,

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uh, was my boss while I was there

and watching him work was fantastic.

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One interesting thing in this, this

part of my career, which was really

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like the first 12 years, there wasn't

a separation between producers and

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designers, so I didn't start working

in the industry so early that it was

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the same guy doing the coding and

the art and the design and the audio.

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So I came in later after coding

and art and audio had really

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split off as distinct disciplines.

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You were generally the lead designer

and the lead producer on your project,

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um, which actually I think taught me

some very valuable stuff, both as a

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designer really thinking about What's

the difficulty of implementation?

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What's the overhead?

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What's the cost of what

I want to build, right?

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And how as a designer can I

facilitate risk management and, you

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know, cost containment and really

think about bang for the buck?

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Because, you know, it's one thing to

come up with ideas and another thing

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to be accountable for getting those

actually done and into the game.

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I would imagine it would also help

with, like, what you mentioned

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earlier as far as understanding your

demographic and designing for them.

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Mm hmm.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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And then I think also though, it

gave me much more of a connection to

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quality and the design process and

the amount of iteration necessary as

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a producer than I would have had if

I were coming up as a pure producer.

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So I feel like playing both of

those roles has a lot of value.

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And even though I am.

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Um, a better designer

than a Gantt completer.

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You know, I feel like building

up, building up both of those.

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You just made a lot of

producers very angry.

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No, there's, there's a lot more

to the job than that, right?

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Please don't, don't even get me there.

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I once referred to, uh, the

title of producer, um, as a null

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signifier in a job interview.

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Because I've known producers that

were almost purely creatives,

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that were almost purely project

managers, and even producers that

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were almost purely dealmakers.

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It's a bit of a catch all title.

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One of the things I tell people about

being a producer is that Other people

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are various tiles in the structure,

and you have to be the grout.

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Yes, yeah, you know, it's uh,

it's, it's your job to, you

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know, kind of make it happen.

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Yeah, I have my whole

building a house analogy.

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Whenever I tell people I'm a game

designer, the first thing they ask

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me is, if I write a lot of code.

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Um, and the answer is like no

relative to any capable coder.

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I'm a pretty crappy one.

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Although that's kind of one of my, uh,

skill sets that I'm hoping to rebuild and

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strengthen in the, in the coming year.

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Um, but, you know, I kind of tell people,

if you think about building a building,

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you know, the designer is the architect,

the producer is the contractor, right?

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Is the, I'm going to get it all there.

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And then, you know, hopefully they're

super invested in the quality of the

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final product, but you know, I like in

the engineers and the artists, uh, to kind

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of the actual carpenters and electricians

and folks who are going to come in

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and really put those things in place.

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Right.

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The crafts people, the craft people.

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But the, the producers got to bring

that team together and it has to keep

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them flowing and organized and has

to deal with all the unexpected stuff

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that comes up during that project.

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And then of course, you know, they

have to disappear for three weeks

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and stop answering phone call.

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No, I'm sorry.

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That's how they're

different from contractors.

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And then there's the associate producers

who are more like craft services.

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Sure.

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No, I'm kidding.

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I'm totally kidding.

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So.

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No, but I mean, you know, for me,

I actually really enjoy production.

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I really enjoy leading teams.

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I really enjoy kind of figuring out

those puzzles of what we have to do next.

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And I actually really love

working with prioritization

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and road mapping and planning.

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And I also really enjoy agile

process management, right?

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So I think that's really fun.

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And, and I, some interesting ways of

doing that from some super cool people.

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But when it comes down to the meticulous

tracking of every detail, I am.

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There, there are other people

who are much better at that.

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So just in terms of mentors, and I

know I've gone long, but I'll, I'll

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sort of finish up, um, quickly.

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But, um, in terms of design, there

was an incredibly brilliant staff

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of creative designers at Platum.

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So Troy Whitlock was there again.

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Um, I also learned a ton

from, uh, Steve Moretzky.

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Oh, yeah.

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So Steve and I are old friends.

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We've done a lot of

public speaking together.

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We've organized symposia together.

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Um, so having a chance to work

with him for a few years was great.

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Um, and brilliant, brilliant

fellow named, uh, Eric Todd, the

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gardens of time guy was also there.

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And I learned a tremendous

amount from him.

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Oh, and Raph Koster, who I read

his book, one of the smartest

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guys in the business for sure.

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Now was that whole crew on

that, um, in that SOMA office.

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No, so the HQ was actually in Palo Alto.

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Um, so Let's see up in soma steve worked

out of soma Raph worked out of a studio

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that we acquired down in san diego And

then eric troy and I worked out of the

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palo alto office Although um, we all did

a fair amount of flying around playdom was

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a company that grew a lot by acquisition.

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So um, we had studios in north carolina

seattle Buenos aires So I got to fly

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to Buenos Aires a couple of times.

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That's nice.

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No complaints.

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No complaints.

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Particularly Buenos Aires

in January, fabulous, right?

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Middle of the summer down there.

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And so yeah, I really enjoyed kind

of, uh, flying around and, and

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partnering with those different teams

and trying to help get them on track.

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So let's dig in a little bit on process

because you mentioned to me when we were

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talking ahead of the interview, how, how

this was something you really cared about.

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And I want to learn a little bit about

the kinds of processes you feel are really

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important to mobile and free to play

gaming and working with your clients.

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Sure.

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Well, I mean, let's, let's talk

about the processes that are critical

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to game development in general.

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I hear a little clinking over there.

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So that's, that's always a good sign.

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It is, it is.

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It's, um, you know, a

glass of seltzer water.

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So very, very exciting afternoon fair.

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Um, so one of the big things, and

this actually gets missed a lot.

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As folks become more engaged with

the business models of their game is,

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you know, your game has to be fun.

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If it's not fun, if it's not

compelling, if it's not engaging, then

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there's nothing you can do in terms

of monetization or metagame or what

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have you that's going to save it.

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Mm hmm.

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Right.

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And for what it's worth, there are a lot

of games that don't deserve to be saved.

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Um, so one of the things that I wind

up doing, not, not spoken like a.

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Ex non profit person, Dave.

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No, there are a lot of non profit

projects that don't deserve to be saved.

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So, you know, ultimately using prototype

driven development is a way of essentially

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finding out very quickly whether your,

your game is worth finishing, right?

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Um, and so one of the things that

I really push teams to do is to

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stack up and order Early kind of de

risking or pre production process.

359

:

Um, a fair amount of my thinking on

this is shaped by a paper by Mark Cerny.

360

:

Um, so he's the guy that created, uh,

Marble Madness and, uh, I think it was

361

:

Crash Bandicoot, many others, but, uh,

called the, the Cerny Method, right?

362

:

Which is really about sort of separating

a project into a pre production segment

363

:

where process is very loose, the team

works really, really fast, and really kind

364

:

of gets the point where they can build

a scale model of a game that they think

365

:

is going to be commercially successful.

366

:

And then from there you move into

production where the game is better

367

:

understood and you just kind of know what

you're building and you're focused on.

368

:

Just building that out in a much

more predictable, process driven way.

369

:

Right, like in one stage

you're, uh, you're figuring

370

:

out how to make the dishes.

371

:

What are the recipes for the dishes?

372

:

And at the next stage,

you're making the dishes.

373

:

Yeah, theoretically.

374

:

I mean, I think development isn't quite as

rigid as that, and you need to allow for

375

:

learnings that occur later in the process.

376

:

Early on, at the very beginning

of a project, there are a couple

377

:

of things that I like to try

to maneuver teams into doing.

378

:

So one is using some really tightly

defined rubrics to help them identify

379

:

what they think the core fun of the game

is going to be, and who the audience is.

380

:

Right.

381

:

And why it's going to align to

really take a little time to step

382

:

back and think about what it is

that they want to build and why.

383

:

And then the second thing, uh, so

that's, you know, kind of more of

384

:

design and production collaboration.

385

:

And that's kind of like, uh, aligning the

product with the audience coming up with

386

:

prototypical players, that sort of thing.

387

:

So what I do try to do is I try to get a

really simple kind of demographic profile.

388

:

Um, who do you think

you're building this for?

389

:

You know, gender, age, favorite

games, favorite TV shows.

390

:

Can we build a little picture of what

the content profile of the consumer

391

:

we think is going to like this game

is going to be, and then as we think

392

:

about what we're putting into it,

let's really think about how it aligns.

393

:

But there are a couple of rubrics, like

one of my favorites that I'm actually

394

:

working on a blog post about at the moment

is what I call the five fun factors.

395

:

So, this is kind of something

I picked up at Pogo.

396

:

Generally, the idea is your game

should have somewhere between three

397

:

and five absolutely great, super

fun, highly repeatable things that

398

:

your player can do, wants to do.

399

:

And kind of knows how to get to so that

they're willing to crawl through the

400

:

mud to do these great things that are

really exciting and compelling, right?

401

:

And how granular do you get when

you're thinking about what a thing is?

402

:

So I usually define it in

terms of a player action.

403

:

So let's say you're thinking about, You

know, uh, civilization type game, right?

404

:

Maybe it's, um, you know, unlocking

a new unit or building, right?

405

:

When I get to do that,

it's really exciting.

406

:

Cause I know now I can win fights.

407

:

I couldn't win before I can make my

cities big in ways I couldn't before.

408

:

So I want that moment of

unlocking to feel really good.

409

:

Gotcha.

410

:

And I'm willing to jump through

a lot of hoops for that.

411

:

Um, you know, in a Civ game,

I probably want conquering an

412

:

enemy city to feel great, right?

413

:

I want discovering hidden

features on the map to feel great.

414

:

So these are like abstract, a

little bit abstract, fun mechanics.

415

:

Yeah, I mean, if you think about

them from a sort of mechanics,

416

:

dynamics, aesthetics, yeah.

417

:

They're kind of low end of

the dynamics level, right?

418

:

Um, but yeah, these are, you know,

these are things where the player

419

:

says, man, I want to do that again.

420

:

That was great.

421

:

Um, in my experience, if you're working on

something at the scope of a mobile game,

422

:

and you're trying to get more than about

Five of those into your initial release.

423

:

You tend to have a diffuse design.

424

:

You tend to get feature creep, um, and

those big moments that you're trying

425

:

to punch actually don't, don't sing.

426

:

They don't get there.

427

:

They don't get the hooks into players.

428

:

Yep.

429

:

That makes sense.

430

:

You try to punch too much stuff

and you have a lot of noise.

431

:

Yep.

432

:

And if you have fewer than three and

you're trying to do something at the

433

:

scope of a mobile game, you really

need to be on the lookout for, is there

434

:

enough here to keep people engaged?

435

:

And one of the things I find working.

436

:

With many designers, especially young

designers, um, you know, so I mentioned

437

:

i'm a board game nut, you know Board

games are very mechanically driven.

438

:

They're very mechanically naked.

439

:

They they kind of sit out there and

need to be Uh human moderated a lot

440

:

of young designers really like to

start with very granular mechanics

441

:

And build the game up from there.

442

:

We're going to have this feature Right.

443

:

That's interesting.

444

:

Yeah, and so I found that actually forcing

the team or the designer To step back

445

:

and say, well, okay, these are the things

that we think are going to be awesome.

446

:

And then challenging them as to whether

the granular features they're talking

447

:

about actually support the awesome, right?

448

:

Do they, do they help that happen?

449

:

Are they kind of necessary scaffolding and

infrastructure or are they gone, right?

450

:

That's kind of the three baskets

I like to see for those, uh,

451

:

those granular feature designs.

452

:

Either they make the payoffs great

or they're connected tissue that

453

:

you need just to be able to get

there or focus your limited time and

454

:

resources on doing something else.

455

:

Um, so, um, along with that kind of sort

of vision crafting process, there are

456

:

a few other rubrics I use, but, um, you

know, that's a good one to start with.

457

:

There's also a list of risks

for the project, right?

458

:

And that's something that,

you know, is very producer y.

459

:

A producer's number one

job is to manage risk.

460

:

Uh, sure.

461

:

That's, that's my My take

on the producer's role.

462

:

You're trying to understand what the

risks for the project getting off

463

:

course are and mitigate them as, as

best you can, as early as you can,

464

:

um, to help keep things on track.

465

:

So I like to see the producer having

really from the kickoff, a list of

466

:

game killing risks and for games

where you're innovating in gameplay.

467

:

Is this gameplay idea is

usually a top risk, right?

468

:

Yeah.

469

:

And in fact, even on games where you

say, well, we're going to take this from

470

:

column A and that from column B and put

them together, often that interface is

471

:

a bit of a stress point where you need

to make sure that System A from game X

472

:

and system B from game Y actually fit

together in a meaningful way, and the

473

:

interface you want to put in between them

is going to be comprehensible and fun.

474

:

Yeah, and even that your version

of element X or Y came out well.

475

:

Yeah, um, so what I like to do, so I

like to have that full list of stuff.

476

:

So it may be about gameplay, it may

be about technology, it may be about

477

:

validating that an audience exists.

478

:

Yeah.

479

:

That you think is out there,

uh, it may be about developing

480

:

a visual style for the game.

481

:

Looking around and saying, okay, what

is, what are all the risks that can

482

:

just, you know, take my, my game out

of the air with a single bullet, right?

483

:

And then, as a good producer, you

want a mitigation plan for that.

484

:

For all of those for gameplay issues,

it's usually a prototype of some sort,

485

:

and you want that prototype to be as

quick and as cheap as you can make it.

486

:

If you can do a paper prototype

that really answers your key

487

:

questions, that's by far and away

the best way to do it, right?

488

:

The designer can secure

some office supplies.

489

:

Go off in a corner, make up some cards,

build the thing as a card game or a

490

:

board game, play through it, and figure

out if it's going to work at that level.

491

:

Take some pieces from one

of your 700 board games.

492

:

They belong together.

493

:

I actually have a separate drawer

of board game prototyping supplies.

494

:

Okay.

495

:

It's full of meeples and gems

and hex grids and you name it.

496

:

Bingo chips, scrabble tiles, and

that's actually super valuable.

497

:

Every designer should

have one of those crates.

498

:

A lot of stuff, particularly stuff

that really involves real time

499

:

interactions, needs a code prototype.

500

:

When I am building a prototype

in code, um, I really like to see

501

:

a very small focus team there.

502

:

You know, a designer and a

programmer, maybe two, iterating

503

:

really, really fast, right?

504

:

The objective of a A prototype is to

fail fast, to make lots of mistakes,

505

:

learn from them, move on, and keep moving

until you either get to a game that

506

:

is going to work, is going to be fun

and playable and exciting, or conclude

507

:

that you need to shelve the project.

508

:

What, uh, what would be fast?

509

:

What's a fast iteration?

510

:

Uh, so for me, I like to try to

start with concepts that can be

511

:

Playable in less than two weeks.

512

:

And then I like to make a significant

change every one to two days.

513

:

During like that two week sprint.

514

:

No, I'm saying the initial two weeks,

the project is permitted to go dark

515

:

because just to get your core systems

and mechanics functioning, it may

516

:

take a week or two to get something.

517

:

actually happening on screen that

resembles the part of the game

518

:

that you were trying to address.

519

:

Once that's done, I want a

significant change daily, right?

520

:

I want to try stuff out, give

it a green, yellow, or red tag.

521

:

Green being, this is awesome,

it needs to stay in the game.

522

:

Red being, that didn't work at all.

523

:

Let's not go back there.

524

:

Let's, you know, learn from it, but it's a

dead end and yellow being, let's take this

525

:

idea and revise it in the next iteration.

526

:

But once you have something playable in

prototype form, I really like to sort

527

:

of have the engineers hand off something

in the afternoon, have the designers

528

:

play it in the afternoon and evening and

come back in the morning saying, okay,

529

:

here's what we're going to try out next.

530

:

For a 12 month project, I'm

kind of willing to let this.

531

:

process go on for up to three months

after you get that first playable.

532

:

So my rule of thumb is within a month

of having something moving on screen

533

:

that, you know, represents the basic

idea of your game, there needs to be

534

:

some kind of spark in the prototype.

535

:

People should be playing it and

saying, I think there's something

536

:

there, or this seems interesting.

537

:

And, and by the time you get

to 90 days, the fund should

538

:

be clear and well elaborated.

539

:

People should be saying, this is good.

540

:

Where are the other levels?

541

:

How do I play more?

542

:

Right.

543

:

You should have people

hooked on your prototype.

544

:

Now inside the prototype, I'm a huge

protagonist of using few, if any, assets.

545

:

I use a lot of squares, circles,

triangles, a lot of text labels to

546

:

make things clear what they are.

547

:

Um, I don't want to put anything

pretty in my prototype because once

548

:

you start putting beautiful art

into something, people get confused.

549

:

Yeah.

550

:

Yeah.

551

:

Well, either they overestimate the

fun factor, if the game is fun.

552

:

Overestimate how close it is to shipping.

553

:

When I have an engineer that I'm

prototyping with, I asked them to write

554

:

code that they would be ashamed to show

their colleagues in a review, right?

555

:

The code should be literally embarrassing.

556

:

It should be as slapdash

as humanly possible.

557

:

So it can be done fast and we can

move on to the next iteration.

558

:

Right.

559

:

And I'd rather take a month of that.

560

:

And then have the developer throw

up their hands and say, Oh my God,

561

:

dude, this thing is such a mess.

562

:

You've asked us to do

all this crappy code.

563

:

I need three days to refactor it.

564

:

Let them go dark for three days.

565

:

I'd much rather have that than

have them try and architect and

566

:

scaffold and make stuff pretty.

567

:

Right.

568

:

Or, or decide three months later

that now they need to refactor

569

:

because they're using the same

code that they started with.

570

:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

571

:

And the code for the prototype

should always be dumb.

572

:

Always, always, always,

always, always, always.

573

:

It can be hard to get political

cover for that in a lot of studios.

574

:

So one trick that I've learned over

the years, you prototype in something

575

:

different than your development platform.

576

:

Oh, that's very interesting.

577

:

Yeah.

578

:

Like GameMaker or something like that.

579

:

GameMaker, Defil, GameSalad.

580

:

Um, there's a bunch of tools out there.

581

:

So, you know, if you're going to make

a Unity game, prototype it in Flash.

582

:

Anything but Unity.

583

:

Anything but unity.

584

:

That's a great, great trick.

585

:

Yeah.

586

:

And then when management says, well,

but we've got all this code here,

587

:

you say, well, sorry, can't, right.

588

:

Um, I am a big believer in

time boxing during prototyping.

589

:

Right.

590

:

So if after a month it is not

feeling like there's a spark, right.

591

:

If instead of.

592

:

This looks interesting, or

there's something there.

593

:

People are looking at it and

going like, I don't get it.

594

:

Or, you know, I think I hear

my mommy calling, right?

595

:

Sorry, I have to go home.

596

:

I can't play baseball anymore.

597

:

My mommy's calling me.

598

:

You don't want to give that

project a whole lot more time.

599

:

Right?

600

:

So in that situation, you might give

the team like up to a week to get

601

:

something that has a little bit of grab.

602

:

And then if they don't, okay, move on.

603

:

Likewise, if you hit that three

month milestone and it's not.

604

:

Fun yet it's not grabbing people maybe

another three week at the most and

605

:

then if not you put it aside right

sometimes just like writing an article

606

:

you need to write your rough draft put

it in your desk drawer for a couple

607

:

of days and come back to it sometimes

stepping away from a prototype is.

608

:

The best thing you can do.

609

:

So mapping that back on to kind

of the cerny method that you were

610

:

talking about earlier, would that

three month window be kind of like

611

:

the end of the pre-production phase?

612

:

Yeah, I like to, while the prototype

is in development, at the same

613

:

time have some concept art going.

614

:

If you need technology prototypes

because you have technical risk,

615

:

I like to have those going.

616

:

But at the end of that three months,

I really hope you can take a step back

617

:

from the project and say, okay, we built.

618

:

something to address all

of the game killing risks.

619

:

We, we now believe that

the game can be successful.

620

:

Uh, we've seen that it's fun, we've

solved our tech problems, we've got

621

:

some art direction that we think is

gonna work for the target population.

622

:

Um, now it's time to kind

of shift gears a little bit.

623

:

So I actually have a kind of brief

planning stage that comes after that.

624

:

Says, okay, well, given everything we've

learned during prototyping, now what do

625

:

we think the product will take to build?

626

:

And then a much more linear building

stage, where you are working in the target

627

:

code base, you are integrating assets,

kind of elaborating through a lot of the

628

:

less risky design or buttoning up details.

629

:

One mistake that people make, and

Dan Cook, uh, who I think is just a

630

:

brilliant game design thinker, has a

great article about this on Lost Garden.

631

:

That completely shut down the creative

process after you get through that

632

:

prototyping pre production stage.

633

:

Um, and say, okay, well now we're

going to build this out exactly.

634

:

And we cannot deviate at all.

635

:

You, um, you wind up missing out on

a lot of good creative opportunities.

636

:

Of course.

637

:

So, you want to make sure that

you've got some wiggle room left to

638

:

kind of learn more about the game,

learn more about the players, um,

639

:

discover and improve as you go.

640

:

But yeah, it's kind of, pre production is,

let's de risk all the, the crazy risks.

641

:

Planning, let's figure out what

it's going to take to get built.

642

:

And building, let's build it.

643

:

And then of course, you know, this is

very much a packaged goods model, right?

644

:

So the building kind of never ends

as you go into sort of endless cycles

645

:

of live development and free to play,

um, and as you get more and more user

646

:

data to sort of come into the process.

647

:

What do you do if opinions differ

about whether there's a spark?

648

:

So In general, kind of building,

uh, A competitive mobile game at

649

:

this point in history is going

to cost you multiple millions.

650

:

Yeah, I think a lot of people have still

not come to terms with that, but yes.

651

:

Yeah, I've been doing some scratch budgets

for a potential project and even the

652

:

cheap ones at this point tend to be around

a million and a half to two million.

653

:

We're talking about free to play kind

of games as service style mobile games.

654

:

Yeah, absolutely.

655

:

So, you know, this is kind of what your

development costs you up to the point

656

:

where you're ready to soft launch it.

657

:

Um, and then, if the game looks like it's

going to be competitive, as you bring it

658

:

to market, through soft launch, you're

going to need to continue to support

659

:

that team, and you're going to need to

acquire users on some steady basis so

660

:

that you can bring them into the game

to sort of, uh, Verify that players are

661

:

behaving the way you think, um, that

the technology stands up and so on.

662

:

And then, if the numbers look good

coming out of soft launch, you're

663

:

likely to want a large launch

marketing budget on top of that, and

664

:

that can be multiple millions again.

665

:

So, Just ask yourself, like before

you would come out of pocket for

666

:

the, whatever, three to five to 10

million bucks, it's going to cost to

667

:

launch a top of market mobile game.

668

:

How strong would you want your

proof and conviction to be?

669

:

Right, right.

670

:

It's a big investment.

671

:

This is not, you know, let's, let's

take 200, 000 development funds and

672

:

throw it together and see what happens.

673

:

Right, but, and, but somehow

there still ends up being quite

674

:

a bit of gilding the lily.

675

:

I'm not quite sure what you mean.

676

:

Meaning taking something that

doesn't have That heart of gold

677

:

and dressing it up thinking that's

going to change change the outcome.

678

:

You mean polishing the turd?

679

:

Yes.

680

:

Gilding the lily is actually a term

I've heard in game development to mean

681

:

something at the opposite end, which

is kind of Taking a game that's really

682

:

solid and continuing to work on it well

past the point that it's actually done.

683

:

Oh, you're right.

684

:

You're right Yeah, that makes sense.

685

:

So it's taking something that's

basically done and continuing

686

:

to work on it Yeah, exactly.

687

:

So, um, you know, gilding the

lily has its own problems.

688

:

Mostly that you can lose some market

incumbency and you have some additional

689

:

burn while you fool around with stuff.

690

:

There's a minor risk of breaking stuff.

691

:

Polishing the turret is

a much bigger problem.

692

:

Right.

693

:

And, uh, yeah, let's, let's talk a

little bit about polishing the turret.

694

:

Yeah, I have, I have polished

some turds in, in my career

695

:

and it, it never ends well.

696

:

Right.

697

:

Um, at the end of the day, a game that

isn't fun for some meaningful target

698

:

segment, isn't engaging, isn't retentive,

isn't something people want to do, is

699

:

not going to be a financial success.

700

:

Right?

701

:

If nobody's having fun with your game,

you're not going to keep people around.

702

:

They're not going to give you money.

703

:

Um, I'm a big believer in, you know,

kind of brutal honesty about where a

704

:

game is and what its prospects are.

705

:

Um, but I do think that there are a lot of

games that should not go into production

706

:

that do, usually for a few reasons.

707

:

Um, so kind of typical causes

that I've seen are There are

708

:

external contractual obligations.

709

:

So sometimes you may have say a license

signed and there's a big breakup fee.

710

:

If you don't deliver the product,

the product may make sense, or

711

:

even just, you know, not delivering

a product is a PR nightmare.

712

:

Um, I think the, um, You know, there are a

lot of reasons that show up kind of around

713

:

other types of external commitments,

especially in public companies.

714

:

If you've gone out and sort of

told the investment community,

715

:

we're going to make a lot of money

in Q3 because of this release.

716

:

Um, it is hard not to

release that thing in Q3.

717

:

Um, but if it's not ready,

then not releasing it is

718

:

usually the right decision.

719

:

Um, and there's also a lot

of ego investment, right?

720

:

Um, people are Hopefully passionate

about the games that they work on, right?

721

:

I know that I work really,

really hard to make the games

722

:

fun and enjoyable and grabby.

723

:

Um, and when you invest a lot of yourself

into your work that way, especially into

724

:

creative work, um, it can be really,

really hard to get enough perspective

725

:

on it to be able to objectively say

this is working or this is not working.

726

:

Um, and frankly, even if you

kind of know it's not working.

727

:

It can be hard to admit that externally.

728

:

Yeah, absolutely.

729

:

Um, but it gets even harder not

to admit it over time, doesn't it?

730

:

Yes, absolutely.

731

:

So there's this sort of sunk cost

problem where The more you work on

732

:

it, the more invested you become.

733

:

So the more hesitant you are to kind of

judge that work in a really critical way.

734

:

Um, so I think, you know, this is actually

something that I find myself doing

735

:

with, uh, a lot of teams, um, is what

I call the emperor's new clothes guy.

736

:

Right.

737

:

So presumably you're familiar with

the tale of the Emperor's New Clothes.

738

:

I have my own use of that

term in game development that

739

:

I'll tell you about after.

740

:

Interesting.

741

:

Okay.

742

:

So, you know, uh, for any listeners who

may not be familiar, the Emperor's New

743

:

Clothes is a folktale about a very vain

emperor who, you know, kind of loves to

744

:

be well dressed and, uh, you know, uh,

Taylor, uh, comes to him and the tailor

745

:

is kind of a charlatan and he tells him

he's going to sew him a fantastic set of,

746

:

of clothes that are going to be gorgeous

and the envy of everyone at the royal

747

:

parade, um, and the king gives him a

fabulous sum of money and, um, the tailor

748

:

actually just pockets the money and, and

makes nothing, um, King tells him that

749

:

he's dressing him and that, you know, um,

he looks fabulous and that the clothes

750

:

were invisible to him, but to everyone

else, they're going to look amazing.

751

:

Um, and of course all of the King's,

uh, court and his supporters and his

752

:

toadies tell him that he looks amazing.

753

:

He walks down the street in the

Royal parade, everyone's, you know,

754

:

applauding and like some little boy

comes forward and says, he's naked.

755

:

Right.

756

:

Right.

757

:

And.

758

:

All the adults around

him go, no, no, no, no.

759

:

He looks great.

760

:

The clothes are fantastic.

761

:

Right.

762

:

Cause they know the king is

very vain and they're going to

763

:

be like, no, dude, he's naked.

764

:

I can see all of you, right?

765

:

This often actually becomes my,

my function on a team, right?

766

:

Is to be the guy who really comes in

to sort of take a hard look at what

767

:

they're building and make sure that.

768

:

They have a realistic handle on what

its problems are, what its challenges

769

:

are, and what they're gonna need to do

to it to actually make it successful.

770

:

Um, Wooga, whom I did a lot of consulting

for over the last couple of years, um,

771

:

recently released a game called Warlord.

772

:

And this is a game I sort of

coincidentally touched while I was,

773

:

uh, driving development on another

prototype there, or driving design.

774

:

Um, the product lead asked me to play it.

775

:

You know, I played it for a few minutes,

and I told him it was quite terrible, and

776

:

And the game had been in development for,

I think, a couple of years at that point.

777

:

Um, that it was, it was really dreadful

and I, I didn't want to keep playing

778

:

it and that, you know, he actually

really needed to get out of production

779

:

mode, get back into prototyping and

make the game fun or kill it before

780

:

he really continued developing it.

781

:

You know, they actually, to their

credit, went back and built, like,

782

:

a gameplay prototyping team and did

a bunch of paper prototyping, built

783

:

a bunch of, of board, board games,

um, played them out internally, and

784

:

actually got the core mechanic to a

place where it was pretty damn fun.

785

:

Part of that process, they brought

me in every few months to kind of

786

:

help evaluate process, but I wasn't

a super hands on guy with that.

787

:

But now it's, you know, a couple years

later, and I just heard from producer

788

:

of that project, Uh, which, by the way,

uh, recently released, uh, worldwide for

789

:

iOS and Android, and it's pretty fun.

790

:

Check it out.

791

:

And he just sent me a note of

thanks for saying that my kind of

792

:

intervention in making the team realize

that what they were building wasn't

793

:

fun and needed serious work on the

core game and the core engagement.

794

:

Was one of the most valuable things that

anyone had ever done for the project.

795

:

Yeah, that's great.

796

:

You were the little kid.

797

:

I was I was the emperor's new clothes guy.

798

:

Like that game is naked

I couldn't see stuff.

799

:

I shouldn't see on that game.

800

:

That's not good.

801

:

Well, I I think yeah having an experience

Hand like you give an outside perspective

802

:

on on a product and development

can be just incredibly valuable.

803

:

It helps It's one of the the services

that I provide for teams Is just

804

:

kind of looking at a snapshot of

where the game is regardless of

805

:

where it is in the development cycle

So i've done this with live games.

806

:

I've done this with prototypes.

807

:

I've done this with games in production

you know and often that's the beginning

808

:

of a longer relationship where I You

Work with the team more regularly

809

:

throughout their development cycle,

work with them to kind of mature their

810

:

development processes, teach some of

these, uh, tools and rubrics to the

811

:

team and help them apply it internally.

812

:

Um, ultimately what I'm

trying to do is over time.

813

:

Just sort of get the team operating at

as high a level as possible so that they

814

:

can then, you know, just sort of, um,

unceremoniously boot me out and force

815

:

me to look around for new customers,

uh, because, you know, they've, they've

816

:

kind of downloaded all that wisdom.

817

:

Um, but it's amazing how many

times it just starts with like,

818

:

Me going yeah game is naked guys.

819

:

Sorry.

820

:

I've had to do that too.

821

:

And I've also you're I mean You're

somebody who I've gone to when I'm looking

822

:

for some wisdom on on a project Well,

you know, I'm kind of an omnivorous guy.

823

:

I try to make a study of what's

working in the marketplace.

824

:

What's the You know, kind

of the prior art out there.

825

:

And so I just wound up over time with,

you know, 700 board games in my house.

826

:

And I think I had bled production or

design on like 50 plus video games.

827

:

I've now consulted on

dozens and dozens of others.

828

:

I just kind of got this massive library

of things that work and things that

829

:

have been done and how they work.

830

:

And I'm, I'm often able

to kind of slot those in.

831

:

Um, but you know, I, I

have a friend, uh, who.

832

:

Works in the kind of

investment consulting space.

833

:

Uh, games are one or two or three sectors.

834

:

He covers does a lot of due diligence

for investors and helping companies

835

:

that are trying to raise money.

836

:

Um, and what he says is that he's

got now, um, three decades of,

837

:

um, painful mistakes, you know,

in his bag of experience and

838

:

high skill at pattern matching.

839

:

Yeah.

840

:

So by, by the way, just as an aside, the,

my use of the emperor's clothes analogy

841

:

is for, um, working as a, as a producer.

842

:

Um, when I was working as a producer

doing external development, you get

843

:

into this situation where like the

executives, uh, at the publishing

844

:

company and at a development studio.

845

:

will agree to Ridiculous schedules and

budgets and they'll do it because It

846

:

benefits it benefits the studio just to

have the relationship in the deal even

847

:

if they know it's not going to work out

on that schedule and budget and of course

848

:

the the publishing execs are often looking

for You know, for better or for worse,

849

:

they're looking for the best, what they

think is the best deal that they can get.

850

:

And so it leaves the producer in

the position of the kid saying this

851

:

is not realistic and everyone's

just winking at each other.

852

:

Yes.

853

:

Yeah, absolutely.

854

:

I've, I've, I've been in

those situations as well and

855

:

unwinding them is always painful.

856

:

That's what leads to the

come to Jesus meeting.

857

:

Right.

858

:

But you know, sometimes

maybe that's all part of it.

859

:

Sometimes, what's all part of it?

860

:

Like a project may just, Need

to get started on with a wink

861

:

and have a come to Jesus moment.

862

:

Oh, yeah, you know the more games I make

the Less I am fond of starting games with

863

:

what I know are unrealistic premises.

864

:

I Personally really don't enjoy it.

865

:

Yeah.

866

:

No, it's it's not fun and in fact

one of the things that I got to to

867

:

be in the habit of doing as a person

Producer when I was doing some external

868

:

stuff was inserting some cushion

between my budget and my contract.

869

:

Because in my experience a really well

managed and really well thought out game

870

:

goes over budget by about 20 percent.

871

:

Averagely by about 50 percent and

poorly by a hundred percent or more.

872

:

I ran those things pretty tight.

873

:

So I just tried to give myself

20 or 25 percent buffer.

874

:

Right, right.

875

:

But it gets complicated right because

then a lot of people You know So then this

876

:

average of 20%, for example, does that

include, does that include the buffer?

877

:

Does that, you know, and, and it's

happening up and down the chain, right?

878

:

So if you ask an engineer for an

estimate, are they including buffer?

879

:

Uh, it's a, it's a funny, it's a

very funny thing, uh, to, and a

880

:

very personal thing to know how to

schedule specific groups of people.

881

:

Yeah.

882

:

One of my favorite little bits of, um,

extreme programming, which was Right

883

:

after kind of the Agile manifesto was

written in the next two years, a bunch

884

:

of different really, really like tightly

defined and honestly kind of rigid Agile

885

:

methodologies arose, and one of them was

called Extreme Programming, and they had

886

:

some tenets that I didn't particularly

care for, um, for instance, every line

887

:

of code should be pair programmed.

888

:

Right.

889

:

I remember this.

890

:

I think the programmers were

supposed to like sit next to

891

:

each other in some specific way.

892

:

Yeah.

893

:

Basically at any given time, one

programmer should be programming

894

:

and explaining what he or she is

programming to the other programmers

895

:

sitting over their shoulder

listening and offering feedback.

896

:

For what it's worth, for super

tricky bits of code that are hard to

897

:

get right, this is still valuable.

898

:

But for every line of code in

a project, it's just overkill.

899

:

But they did have a nice tool that

was sort of part of that Agile

900

:

methodology that was about person

by person velocity measurement.

901

:

The idea being for each person

on the project, you record what

902

:

their task estimates are and

what their actual task times are.

903

:

Not to be You know, punitive or,

you know, create trouble or show

904

:

this up in a performance review,

but more to the point where you

905

:

look and say, warning, truth ahead.

906

:

Dave is a terrible estimator.

907

:

Things always take, on average, 30

percent longer than he thinks they will.

908

:

Then in the future, whenever

Dave turns in an estimate, you

909

:

mentally mark it up by 30%.

910

:

Yeah.

911

:

Whereas you say, you know,

Jordan's a sandbagger, man.

912

:

He always gets it done in

half the time he tells us.

913

:

Then, in your own internal accounting,

you cut Jordan's estimates in half.

914

:

Because, I know you're like that, man.

915

:

I don't know if that's a

compliment, but I'll take it.

916

:

Ha ha ha!

917

:

That's actually a really useful

measure, and really understanding the

918

:

proclivities of your team is important.

919

:

And what I will say is, even if that

padding does go all the way up the

920

:

chain, the padding goes up the chain

because it tends to get consumed.

921

:

Because games are really hard.

922

:

They're Less predictable than, you

know, kind of non game app development.

923

:

They have colossal non functional

requirements that you have to

924

:

account for, which is to say

they have to be fun, right?

925

:

They have to monetize.

926

:

So, you know, getting all

that stuff right is hard.

927

:

And in a red ocean, like free

to play mobile games, you

928

:

really have to get it right.

929

:

You really have to get it all right.

930

:

That is a red ocean.

931

:

That, that ocean is so bloody right now.

932

:

Yeah I definitely feel it some mornings.

933

:

Well, um, you know, I, I know through

my experience working with you, and

934

:

it's clear from our, our chat today that

you, you're a great person to bring,

935

:

bring wisdom and processes to, to, to

the development of these sorts of games.

936

:

I'm, I'm curious as we

kind of close out here.

937

:

Where do you think the

new opportunities are?

938

:

Where's the blue ocean in the

industry, uh, in, in your mind?

939

:

Well, um, it's an interesting question.

940

:

So I will say if you're looking

for, uh, for the gold rush, by all

941

:

means, make some VR titles, right?

942

:

Cause the funding environment over

there right now is kind of stupid.

943

:

There's a lot of investors just

spreading a lot of bets on the table.

944

:

Uh, there's a lot of platform providers

who are willing to take a bath in

945

:

order to get, um, software made

for their hardware, right, because

946

:

ultimately software sells hardware.

947

:

Um, so, if you are looking to fund

a company that can implode in two to

948

:

three years, I would totally do VR.

949

:

Um, so, things that I think are, A

little more interesting and durable.

950

:

Um, just let me, let me put a little

caveat on this, which is, you know,

951

:

I've done a lot in my career by being

able to see what the next kind of

952

:

down market platform was going to be.

953

:

Um, so I spent years building kids

games and then games and browsers

954

:

and then game on Facebook and

then, uh, now games on mobile.

955

:

Um, the crystal ball on the

next thing right now is cloudier

956

:

than it's been in a while.

957

:

Um, we've kind of been on

mobile as the next platform.

958

:

I have a couple of ideas

about things that may be next.

959

:

Um, on the, you know, kind of sideways

side of the market, not the kind of down

960

:

market thing you have for other reasons.

961

:

Um, I actually find AR pretty interesting.

962

:

Yep.

963

:

So, just the idea that you don't

have to be fully immersed, you don't

964

:

have to unplug, you can be in the

world, and gaming and enjoying, I

965

:

think, is a really compelling idea.

966

:

You'll certainly look a

lot less foolish doing AR.

967

:

Mayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy.

968

:

Maybe.

969

:

Tell it to Google Glasses.

970

:

Um, no, I think, you know, there, there

will be potential to do interesting AR

971

:

stuff that doesn't make you look like

you're doing a scene from Tommy, right?

972

:

Have you seen the Snapchat glasses?

973

:

No, I have not actually.

974

:

They launched like, uh, I mean, I

haven't seen them in person, but

975

:

they just launched a, um, Like

a sort of Google Glasses kind

976

:

of thing to record, uh, snaps.

977

:

Oh man.

978

:

You're going to make me do a

web search while I'm talking

979

:

to you on this interview.

980

:

Check it out.

981

:

They're trying to make it cool.

982

:

You know, they're actually

trying to make that cool.

983

:

So, um, for what it's worth,

I do also think, um, VR.

984

:

Games may arrive at some point, but

it's a number of years out, and it's

985

:

not going to be until non game VR

applications have pushed very, very deep.

986

:

Oh, that's interesting.

987

:

So, yeah, dude, like,

let's go to Paris, right?

988

:

Or let's go home shopping.

989

:

Let's go home shopping.

990

:

Let's redecorate, right?

991

:

Like, I'm going to put on

my glasses and start moving

992

:

furniture around the living room.

993

:

Um, but I think ultimately AR

is probably the better play in

994

:

most of those spaces, right?

995

:

Or many of them.

996

:

But do you think that's

pretty far off too?

997

:

Because it seems like that's a pretty,

a pretty big lift technologically too.

998

:

Yeah, I do.

999

:

But I think over the long term

for gaming, it feels like it's

:

00:53:52,600 --> 00:53:53,870

got a little more potential.

:

00:53:54,460 --> 00:53:57,160

The trend that I see in gaming

is actually towards like less

:

00:53:57,160 --> 00:53:59,060

immersion, shorter sessions.

:

00:53:59,140 --> 00:54:03,135

Um, and VR It's all about

plugging in and tuning out, right?

:

00:54:03,225 --> 00:54:06,825

I'm really interested in how

the, the sort of game market

:

00:54:06,875 --> 00:54:09,215

for wearables evolves, right?

:

00:54:09,255 --> 00:54:13,235

Cause this is another place where you

think about, you know, your Apple watch,

:

00:54:13,295 --> 00:54:15,165

you have it for other reasons, right?

:

00:54:15,165 --> 00:54:18,665

It's there to give you your notifications

on SMS, but if you can enjoy a little

:

00:54:18,665 --> 00:54:22,095

bit of light gameplay with it as you

go, I think that's super interesting.

:

00:54:22,205 --> 00:54:26,895

Personally, I'm really fascinated by

what kind of games you can do that

:

00:54:26,895 --> 00:54:29,625

are really, really concentrated in.

:

00:54:30,075 --> 00:54:31,525

Audio, right?

:

00:54:31,635 --> 00:54:34,995

Um, so one of the things that I'm noodling

on right now, so I'll just tell all

:

00:54:34,995 --> 00:54:39,115

your listeners so someone can beat me

to the punch, but, uh, working on some

:

00:54:39,115 --> 00:54:45,605

designs for what would a game that you

play entirely using audio, um, via the

:

00:54:45,605 --> 00:54:47,365

Bluetooth stereo of your car look like?

:

00:54:47,705 --> 00:54:51,625

I know that, uh, Dave Grossman

is doing some work in that space.

:

00:54:51,850 --> 00:54:56,450

I know a little bit about what Day

is doing and the creative direction

:

00:54:56,450 --> 00:55:00,150

I want to take for it is quite

different from the really narrative

:

00:55:00,150 --> 00:55:01,310

focused stuff that he's doing.

:

00:55:01,660 --> 00:55:02,230

Interesting.

:

00:55:02,370 --> 00:55:03,930

Well, I'm very curious.

:

00:55:03,930 --> 00:55:05,420

I don't know how much

you can talk about that.

:

00:55:05,940 --> 00:55:07,120

Probably about as much as I did.

:

00:55:08,565 --> 00:55:10,355

Well, when you're ready,

we're going to have you back.

:

00:55:10,455 --> 00:55:12,765

Yeah, we can talk about

that a little more offline.

:

00:55:12,765 --> 00:55:16,495

And then, uh, hopefully when I have,

you know, maybe a team and a little

:

00:55:16,495 --> 00:55:19,445

bit of, uh, money to, to explore

that idea, I think it'll be a great

:

00:55:19,445 --> 00:55:21,015

time for a follow up conversation.

:

00:55:21,105 --> 00:55:21,895

Sounds good, Dave.

:

00:55:21,935 --> 00:55:23,935

It was great having you on the show.

:

00:55:23,955 --> 00:55:29,050

I love, uh, Hearing your, your thoughts

and your, your wisdom always appreciated.

:

00:55:29,150 --> 00:55:30,380

Thanks for coming on Jordan.

:

00:55:30,380 --> 00:55:31,740

It's been a pleasure.

:

00:55:31,830 --> 00:55:32,830

Thanks so much for having me.

:

00:55:33,100 --> 00:55:34,680

I look forward to working

with you in the future.

:

00:55:37,320 --> 00:55:40,630

If you enjoyed this episode

and my interview with Dave.

:

00:55:41,150 --> 00:55:42,590

Please consider supporting the show.

:

00:55:42,590 --> 00:55:43,930

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:

00:55:43,940 --> 00:55:44,660

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00:55:44,970 --> 00:55:50,480

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:

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:

00:55:59,900 --> 00:56:04,790

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:

00:56:05,125 --> 00:56:08,695

You can also reach out to me directly

if you have any questions, uh,

:

00:56:08,735 --> 00:56:12,085

about any of the topics we've had

on the show, jordanatbrightblack.

:

00:56:13,675 --> 00:56:13,955

co.

:

00:56:14,305 --> 00:56:19,145

You can also find links on the

blog, that's playmakerspodcast.

:

00:56:19,145 --> 00:56:19,625

com.

:

00:56:20,035 --> 00:56:24,185

And if you head there, we've got a blog

post with All the links to everything

:

00:56:24,185 --> 00:56:25,205

that we talked about on the show.

:

00:56:25,225 --> 00:56:28,495

So there were a lot of designers

mentioned, for example, we'll have

:

00:56:28,495 --> 00:56:32,555

all that on the show, the games,

the companies, and anything else

:

00:56:32,555 --> 00:56:34,275

relevant from the interview with Dave.

:

00:56:34,685 --> 00:56:37,665

So go ahead and check

out one of those things.

:

00:56:37,975 --> 00:56:38,925

Perhaps head to playmakerspodcast.

:

00:56:39,615 --> 00:56:41,645

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:

00:56:41,695 --> 00:56:43,095

You can learn about the guest.

:

00:56:43,645 --> 00:56:47,345

You can get the links to the things we

talked about, and you can also subscribe

:

00:56:47,345 --> 00:56:48,985

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:

00:56:49,365 --> 00:56:50,070

So that's Playmakers Podcast.

:

00:56:50,080 --> 00:56:50,700

Podcast.

:

00:56:50,700 --> 00:56:51,060

com.

:

00:56:51,530 --> 00:56:55,010

And with that, I will sign

out and see you next week.

:

00:56:55,230 --> 00:56:56,570

Thanks for listening to Playmakers.

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Show artwork for Playmakers - The Game Industry Podcast
Playmakers - The Game Industry Podcast

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