Episode 11

Directing AAA Video Games, with Brian Allgeier

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An American video game designer who is best known for his work as the lead designer and creative director on the  Insomniac Games (http://www.insomniacgames.com/)  for the PlayStation 2, PlayStation 3, and PlayStation 4. In 2017, he self-published the book Directing Video Games: 101 Tips for Creative Leaders. Written and illustrated by Brian, the book covers the top principles and tips for both aspiring and experienced creative directors. Visit www.playmakerspodcast.com to get access to the full blog post for this episode and much more!

Transcript
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Blackmon, and you're listening to Playmakers, the podcast where

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I interview game industry experts.

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This week we have Brian Allgaier.

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He is a creator of games like Spyro

the Dragon, Ratchet the Clank, Ratchet

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the Clank, did I just say that?

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Ratchet and Clank and,

uh, Edge of Nowhere.

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We talk about what it's like to be

a creative director and how to do

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it well, which actually pretty much

impacts everyone who works in games.

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So definitely listen to this one.

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Let's talk about a little bit

more after the little break.

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sound.

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Today's guest is an incredible,

incredible leader in creating some

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of the best third person action

platformer games of all time.

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When you think about some of

the greatest third person action

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games of all time, Ratchet and

Clank has got to be on that list.

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And you know, our guest, Brian Algier,

creative director on Ratchet and Clank.

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And when you think about those games, you

also, you know, gotta think about Spyro

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the Dragon, which was just recently,

I mean it's in the news right now, but

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people wanting a remaster of Spyro, which

has gotta be like a 15 20 year old game.

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Spyro came out in 1998.

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So just shy of 20 years and of course

it needs a remake and you know It's

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one of those games that when you meet

a level designer and you talk to them

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Spyro is often one of the games that

they talk about as an inspiration so,

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you know both Spyro and both Ratchet

and Clank have the touch of Brian our

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guest today who is a creative director

at Insomniac one of the creators of

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Ratchet and Clank and has Worked on you

know Spyro The Ratchet and Clank series,

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and the recent VR game, Edge of Nowhere.

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So, this guy has an incredible resume,

and an incredible amount of experience.

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Just creating quality content

year after year for decades.

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So it was a thrill to sit down with

him and pick his brain about the art

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and the craft of creative direction

and how that works at Insomniac.

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One of the first things that we talk

about in the interview is how do

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you get every last drop out of the

mechanics that you put in your game?

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And, you know, this is not the kind of

thing you would immediately think of

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a creative director to be focused on.

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You, you might think he's just about

bringing all sorts of big ideas to the

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game, but, in fact, this was something

that Brian brought up right away.

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So we talk about that.

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We also talk about the documentation and

segmentation system that they created

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for, for Ratchet and Clank to be able

to kind of plan out level by level.

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segment by segment and what

they call setup by setup.

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So you'll learn what that

means in the interview.

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We talk about what it's really like to

be a creative director, um, kind of day

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to day and what the job really entails

and what some of the challenges are.

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And we also talk about something

that I think will be valuable to

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almost anyone, no matter what they

do, which is how do you get the best

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work out of people who know more about

their specific skillset than you do?

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You know, this is like a common

situation in game development where you

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want to, you know, have a team member

do something incredible and you want

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them to do it in a specific direction.

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You want to direct them, but you don't

want to tell them exactly what to do.

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So we talk about the best

way to approach that.

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And then, Brian has a book that

he recently released called

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Directing Video Games 101.

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And Brian shared several of

the tactics and strategies

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that he discusses in that book.

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And those are really valuable as well.

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I bought the book.

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It's fantastic.

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I recommend that you do as well.

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You can find it at directingvideogames.

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com.

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You know, I just checked on Amazon

and they're actually out of stock.

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So congratulations, Brian.

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And I'm sure you can still

find it at directingvideogames.

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com.

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So while you're waiting for your copy,

please do listen to this interview.

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And before we dive in, I just

want to thank some of the people

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who've been writing us reviews.

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We're up to 36 five star reviews.

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I really.

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Want to break that 50 review threshold

if you're thinking about writing a

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review now is the time check this one

out We got from space sloth to it's

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really hard to listen to this in the

car I've had to pull over a few times

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rewind and take notes because the info

is spot on Love that Space Loft 2.

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Thank you very much.

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Videosyncratic, five stars, great

podcast with really interesting

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interviews and solid production value.

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Jordan's found exceptional guests with

valuable and practical information

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on topics ranging across the

full production cycle of a game.

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So, you know, I really much

appreciate that, Videosyncratic.

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And this episode, I believe,

falls squarely into that category.

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You are going to get an exceptional

guest in Brian and valuable and practical

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information from this interview.

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So with all that said, let's dive into

the interview with Brian Allgaier.

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Take me through the

beginning of your career.

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How did you become you and how

did you kind of fall into games?

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Yeah, the crazy thing is before Spyro, I

think I'd worked in the industry for about

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eight years and worked on a bunch of games

that a lot of people hadn't heard of.

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Um, I originally started working in games

back in, uh, early 92, uh, on Philips CDI.

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And so they had come out with the first CD

based console that had full motion video,

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which was like this crazy new thing.

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And I guess Philips and Sony at

one point were in talks of joining

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together to create a console.

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And then Philips decided to split

off and create their own console.

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And of course, then Sony

went off and did the same.

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I was an artist and animator back

then working on 2D pixel artwork.

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I was the only artist on a game

that was on the Hanna Barbera.

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characters.

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Um, there was, uh, Huckleberry

Hound and Scooby Doo and Fred

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Flintstone, all that stuff.

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So I got the job by drawing Scooby

Doo at 16 pixels high, animating.

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The fact that I could pull

that off, uh, got me the gig.

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That does sound hard.

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It's like a little

favicon of, of Scooby Doo.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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Yeah.

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It was like all came, came down to economy

of design and picking your, your pixels.

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And had you gone to school in art?

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I went to Savannah college of art

and design for a couple of years.

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And I majored in video and animation and

back then they didn't have any kind of

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game design curriculum Yeah, I was kind

of all over the place back then I guess

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when you're like, you know When you're

18 or 19, you don't know what you want

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to do and I dabbled in video illustration

I programmed with my Commodore 64 Tried

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to make little games here and there.

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I played a lot of games on my Commodore

64 Uh, but I didn't even think that

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was an option because I consider

myself to be a more creative type

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and back then when you thought of

game making, it was all programmers.

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It was like two or three

programmers sitting in a

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garage, you know, programming.

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And like the engineer creating the

music and all that sort of stuff.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And games were getting a little more

sophisticated around that time, but I just

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didn't really think about it too much.

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And then I decided I

wanted to come out to LA.

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Because I wanted to, um, get into like

filmmaking and they only taught video.

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I remember when the professor was

telling me that the future was video.

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Little did I know how right they were,

but I knew that making good films and

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the arts and craft of filmmaking, it

was still, you can learn more out in

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Los Angeles at schools like USC or UCLA.

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So I just decided to like

pack up and drive out here.

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And I had a few leads.

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And then the opportunity came up where I

could work at Phillips Interactive Media

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as an artist, because a lot of artists

then were scared of using computers.

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Art and computers did not go together.

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I think Photoshop was

barely just getting started.

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I happen to kind of like balance

that line between the two.

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So that's, yeah, that's

how I got that first job.

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And then from there, um, eventually got

into, uh, design, um, because I realized

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that I wasn't the greatest artist.

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I, and again, it was that kind of bridge

between being more, um, logical, uh,

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but also being artistic and can combine

kind of those two sides of the brain.

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Right, and level design, I mean, in a

way, it's like making a giant sculpture.

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Yeah, it's thinking about the sequence

of information, what the player is going

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to expect, and how they're going to

improve their skills and build on them.

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And that's something that I

like to think a lot about.

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Frankly, I did not like Being

told what to draw, I kind of

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wanted to be the jerk who, so.

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But I wanted in a nice way.

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Uh, you know, I just did

these random assignments.

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I'd put my heart and soul into

drawing this stuff, and then it

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would end up getting cancelled.

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And I kind of wish I was on the

other side in those meeting rooms,

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understanding what the producers wanted.

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In the work that you've done,

what's your proudest accomplishment?

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Uh, well the biggest thing is

absolutely the Ratchet Clank series.

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I joined Insomniac back in, um, 99, and

then began working on the Spyro series.

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We started developing Ratchet Clank

after, um, we initially dabbled in

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this other project for about a year.

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It was called Girl with a Stick,

and that didn't quite Working title.

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Right, it wasn't very much a

working title, but it just wasn't

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gaining traction or momentum.

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We decided to scrap it all and go back

to our platforming roots and start

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focusing on developing Ratchet Clank

in a more action platformer style game.

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And I happened to be the only designer

at the company at the time and ended up

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being the design director on the project.

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And I worked very closely with

Mark Cerny, industry legend.

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And he taught me a lot about platforming.

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The nuts and bolts of design and just

how you think about how you're very

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economical with your designs, how

you're kind of careful about what you're

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planning, understanding how much it

impacts production, and then also just

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those A plus B, adding up the different

skills and mechanics and how you layer

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all of those progress difficulty and,

and how the player learns and gradually.

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I'm curious to hear a little bit

more about the aspect of economy that

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you mentioned learning from Mark.

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How does that work for you and him?

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Well, I think the key is, is that

you can get a lot of mileage out

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of just a few assets and elements.

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You can take a few simple mechanics

and combine them in very novel ways

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and really stretch out the experience.

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I think so often, uh, junior designers,

I think that they just have to keep

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entertaining the player and throwing

new and interesting ideas at them.

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And they're not taking something

all the way through to completion.

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If you are teaching Ratchet, for

example, how to use the swing shot

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and how he's like swinging through

the city, there's a lot of different

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ways of mixing up how he's swinging,

grabbing targets, launching, landing on

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platforms, doing multiple swings in a row.

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So there's just lots of little atoms,

I guess, that you can introduce.

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that helps both the player learn and

is also very economical for production.

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Like wringing the most value out of each

individual mechanic and the mechanics

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you have in combination as opposed

to trying to just keep adding new.

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Stuff.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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I think there's a certain confidence in

being able to really focus on a particular

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mechanic or skill and And really diving

in deep with it and looking at all the

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different facets of it and how people are

approaching it Not that this is actually

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just part of our learning process.

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We begin to grok things through repetition

So often we'll have people do something

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two times and then expect them to know it

perfectly and We have to kind of repeat

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it until it becomes second hand First

nature How do you know when you've got the

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most out of one of these mechanics, like,

how do you know when it's time to move

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on, not necessarily in the progression

of the game, but kind of in the design,

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like, when have we got really the most

value out of what this thing can offer?

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Early on in the game, you can focus

on just a couple mechanics, and You

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know, usually a segment, we just, one

thing I learned from Mark was that we

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would divide the entire game up into

segments and we'd create like this macro

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plan that kind of listed them all out.

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And so each segment

was roughly 10 minutes.

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So that's what I find like in a

chapter reading a book or in a mission

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in the game, 10 minutes is about a

good segment of time where people

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can kind of stay focused before they

want to move on to something else.

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The Ratchet and Clank series, Over

time, we just kind of learned what

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felt right in terms of length.

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Uh, it was like around 12

different setups, I think, 12 to

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14 setups we would use per segment.

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So we knew that it would take

roughly 45 seconds to complete

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a setup before people advanced.

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So you just learn these metrics and you

learn about the cadence and the pacing

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and the building blocks over time.

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Like, oh, that was a really fun segment.

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You know, what was so great about it.

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Great about that.

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What was the magic behind that?

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And then you would just kind of

analyze and say, Oh, well, it

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has roughly 12 setups, much like

all these other cool segments.

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And so then that becomes your metric.

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And that's the other thing that

junior designers don't do is they

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don't log all that information down.

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They don't write down all these metrics.

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Uh, how far does the character jump?

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How long is a particular mission?

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And really, um, making sure that

they're sticking to some degree of

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formula or knowing what the formula is.

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And what's working.

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I love that idea of kind of knowing

how long a segment needs to be before

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it's got to change and, and then

subdividing it into these setups.

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So then, then, you know, as a team,

you can talk about it in a pretty

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clear way to this part's not working.

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I think divide and conquer

is, is the way to go.

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Absolutely.

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Who are some other people

that you look up to?

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or whose work has really

influenced you both in the game

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industry and, you know, outside.

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So maybe there's, there's a

particular art form or artist or

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designer that's meant a lot to you.

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Yeah, that's a really good question.

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I think there's a bunch

of them, certainly.

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Uh, I've always been a big, uh,

Hitchcock fan and Spielberg fan.

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I've always enjoyed those movies,

uh, and the art storytelling.

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When I look at games, um, I'm

a big fan of the Naughty Dogs.

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And, um, and prior Naughty Dogs like Amy

Hennig, um, and then of course, uh, Neil

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Druckmann, who directed the recent, um,

Uncharted, as well as, um, Bruce Straley.

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And so, uh, I think that, yeah, I guess

it's interesting when we're, I've been

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developing the Ratchet Clank games,

just looking at both storytelling

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as an art form, but then platforming

games and the more game y style games.

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So with the Naughty Dog, uh, series

with Uncharted in particular, uh,

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I'm just really impressed how they've

really developed characters, stayed

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true to them, and created some really

great plot twists, and always kind

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of surprising you with what's next.

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Uh, and then, you know, of course

I'm a big fan of Shigeru Miyamoto,

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uh, and I, uh, I was kind of

a late bloomer with Nintendo.

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I didn't like play all the early classics.

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I, uh, ended up, I was kind of

playing more, like, computer games

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or I was trying to make games, um,

back during the SNES and NES era.

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Uh, but then when the, um, Nintendo

64 came along and Mario 64, I was

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completely blown away by that game

and I really just became a huge fan.

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And that was another kind of nuts and

bolts of game design where I learned

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a lot just from playing that game.

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That's kind of a Spyro

era game as well, right?

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Absolutely, yeah.

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And that was, during that period, it

was good to kind of analyze that style

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of game and figure out how we wanted

to take it a different direction.

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Uh, especially when we started

working on Ratchet Clank.

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And with Ratchet Clank, we, you

know, obviously took it in more of

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the weapons, the shooter direction,

and we kind of came into our own.

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But, I think initially, we were definitely

looking a lot at Zelda and Mario.

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I think that one of the reasons why

maybe you picked up Nintendo later,

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it's really, I'm kind of the same.

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I was a Genesis kid, and, and I've

become a real fan of, of Nintendo as

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a company, and I think, I think it's

because, doing design, when you start

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doing design, and you start looking

for inspiration, the work of Nintendo

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just pops right out on so many levels,

including, for example, this economy.

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Aspect that you just brought up.

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Yeah, yeah, exactly.

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I mean, I remember applying through

Diddy Kong, um, and taking notes of

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all the different ways that they were

doing vertical platforming with like

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ropes and how you were jumping back

and forth on the different vines.

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I believe it was just amazing at

how much you could really eke out of

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just a few simple mechanics and the

spatial relationships of where you

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were jumping and where you were going.

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This is a job that I think

a lot of people see as.

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The dream job, right?

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You're creative director, just direct

creatively and everyone's looking to you.

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Yeah, just walk in there

and point at some computers.

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What are some of the key differences

between what people think creative

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direction is and what what

it actually has been for you?

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You know doing the work?

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I think there's, um, at every company is

probably a little bit different and, um,

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one thing to kind of note is that there's

typically a creative director and a game

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director on some of the bigger projects

and the creative director tends to handle

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all the touchy feely story related, the

experience type stuff, whereas the game

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director handles more of the design or

pretty much the What was once called

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the lead designer, but they're also

kind of working hand in hand with the

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creative director to make sure both the

story and game design flow together.

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But yeah, I think that the one thing that

this goes back to the economy of design

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and really the economy of creativity.

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You know, people do think the director

just has these wild ideas and they can

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just kind of say anything and it's going

to get Made and it's like whatever they

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can imagine Will appear on the screen

and that's certainly not the case

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There certainly is a lot of power and

you have a lot of influence over the

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direction of the game But you have to

think about production and what your

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budgets are and what you can actually do

technically and then you also have to You

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know Be able to understand how to work

with the team and listen to the team.

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I think that's a big thing that that

people don't think about is that

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you are working with a group of very

talented people and that through

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this, your collective efforts, you're

going to develop an amazing product.

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I've found that whenever.

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Either I or someone else, a director

starts to become a little too, um, kind of

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dictator y, I don't know if that's a word,

but they're pretty much trying to call

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all the shots, um, people start to rebel

in their own ways, and they just don't

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like being ordered, you know, what to do.

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So, um, You know, for being a

being a director, it's like it's

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a number of different things.

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Um, you know, one is you're

always kind of holding the vision.

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You're always ensuring that, um,

what we're all talking about, we're

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all moving in the right direction.

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Um, so often there's so many different

documents and Things are changing

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constantly and the one person that kind

of has the idea of what this game is

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all about it's kind of in their head

and they're still listening to people

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and changing that vision but they're

the ones that continually have to

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communicate and make sure that documents

get updated and people know what

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they're making because it's very hazy

early on when they get the game vision

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just a few prototypes and a few ideas.

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And then the other thing they do is

they help provide some structure and.

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Are putting together the story structure

and the design structure at insomniac.

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We've always put together that macro

plan, which is a document that sort of

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sort of sums up how all the pieces of

the game fit together and also includes

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some of the story elements to, uh, and

then the creative director also works

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with the writer in terms of creating

the scripts and the story documents.

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And so all of that structure

really helps the game.

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The team get a idea of what the

vision is and where things are going.

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And then, um, another aspect of, of being

a creative director is, um, having just

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that toolbox of ideas of how to solve

a lot of creative problems of using

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various techniques, uh, that, um, are

used in both filmmaking and game design.

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And this is stuff that we've,

you know, learned from movies or

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that we've just experienced over

the years, um, of making games.

350

:

Uh, and then, uh, a couple more things,

um, I've got my, my list of five things

351

:

that creative directors should do right

now, uh, is being a creative leader and

352

:

just being able to work well with people.

353

:

And that's, that's huge modeling

the behaviors that you want.

354

:

Yeah, yeah, people will look at their

leads and the creative director as a

355

:

role model and they'll follow suit.

356

:

And they'll look at how passionate

you are, how excited you are about

357

:

something, and realize that what

they're working on is very important.

358

:

That means a lot.

359

:

And, you know, there's a lot of

things like just saving face.

360

:

You know, if there's two people and

they're in disagreement on which way

361

:

to go, if you can kind of come into

the situation and explain to them,

362

:

you Or listen to what they have to say

and then look at both points of view.

363

:

And, you know, maybe, you know, one

person, you're not going to go with

364

:

their point of view, but you're saying,

Hey, you know what, I'm so glad you

365

:

brought this up or this is a really

good idea, but then you have to make

366

:

a decision and explain like, well,

I think we just need to go this way.

367

:

And you can say, there's a lot of

valid points on both sides here, but

368

:

I, you know, I think the best way

for the game is to go, right or left.

369

:

And that way people don't feel slighted.

370

:

They feel like they

both got to contribute.

371

:

They were heard and they

respect that decisiveness.

372

:

Um, whereas I think in some companies you

might say, Oh, that's a ridiculous idea.

373

:

Why would we do that?

374

:

And people feel shamed

in front of their peers.

375

:

And they may, you may not even realize it.

376

:

You may just think you're kind of

being funny, but they might take it

377

:

to heart and then say, well, that's

the last time I'm pitching an idea.

378

:

Right.

379

:

And then you lose out on their ideas.

380

:

Yeah, exactly.

381

:

My final thing about being a creative

director is, is knowing production too.

382

:

And that's the other thing that

can be problematic is there are

383

:

a lot of directors that get into

making games and they may not have

384

:

really made a lot of games before.

385

:

And that can be a disaster because again,

they're trying to call these shots and

386

:

they don't know what they're asking for.

387

:

And so once you start to understand

what goes into making games and how

388

:

long it takes to build and rig and

animate a character, then you can't

389

:

just make these off the cuff requests.

390

:

You, you are thoughtful

about picking your battles.

391

:

Many of those five bits also apply

to production and the producer.

392

:

I know that, for example, Ubisoft,

they basically have their, their like

393

:

two leads will be like a creative

and a production, the equivalent of

394

:

sort of the game director and the

creative director, but, but actually.

395

:

kind of mix between production and

creative because production also has to

396

:

make decisions with a lot of competing

goods and also has to model the

397

:

behaviors that they want from the team.

398

:

Yeah, yeah.

399

:

Um, actually that's, that's kind

of how it works at Insomniac.

400

:

I forgot to mention that part.

401

:

There is the, um, game director,

creative director, and there's a

402

:

project manager and they really

focus solely on the schedule.

403

:

And there's actually a group of

project managers that all kind of work

404

:

together and you kind of divide and

conquer different portions of the game.

405

:

Um, but it's hard, you know, when you're

working with a project manager for them

406

:

not to always appear to be the bad cop.

407

:

So the creative director is

like, I got this great idea.

408

:

I'm curious of those.

409

:

So if you have a creative director.

410

:

a game director and a project

manager, who runs the P& L?

411

:

Like, who's actually responsible for,

you know, the success of the product?

412

:

Um, you know, it's both the creative

director and the project manager.

413

:

And certainly we have, you know, it's the

equivalent of a, um, executive producer.

414

:

And that's, um, someone like, you

know, Ted Price, who's our CEO.

415

:

And he, um, he, he'll come down,

he'll, you know, essentially

416

:

make the final decision.

417

:

If it comes to it.

418

:

Yeah.

419

:

I guess that works for a studio,

um, that, that's, you know,

420

:

doing one or two products.

421

:

Yeah, uh, exactly.

422

:

Um, but usually the way it's worked

in the past is the creative director

423

:

tends to make the final call.

424

:

But, you know, if they're a good creative

director, they're listening to their

425

:

project manager and, um, game director.

426

:

Now, one of the things I was excited to

have you on to talk about is, You know,

427

:

what to do in situations, uh, cause I

think this is something that lots of

428

:

people, um, all over the game industry

and other, other industries to run into

429

:

situations where, you know, they, they're

giving feedback on something and they

430

:

don't quite know how to express the thing

as well as the person doing the work.

431

:

So they're getting, you know, their,

for example, you know, audio, right?

432

:

Like you're doing creative direction.

433

:

The audio clearly fits inside.

434

:

The kind of ambience of the experience

and all the bits that go into the

435

:

storytelling and the The feeling that

the players are gonna get with the

436

:

game But the the audio person may have

a just a much larger vocabulary You

437

:

know, for music and they understand the

instrumentation and the way that the

438

:

rhythm, all these things affect the feel,

um, to a greater degree of granularity

439

:

than, than maybe the game director does.

440

:

How do you interact in a, in a,

in those sorts of situations?

441

:

That's a great question.

442

:

And, um, when I was a more novice

creative director, I felt like I had

443

:

to be prescriptive and tell exactly,

you know, what needs to be done.

444

:

I would try to, I would sometimes

like hum the music or I would

445

:

try to use terms like, you know,

add in the percussive beats here.

446

:

And I later learned that, uh, there's

two things, uh, and this is actually, um,

447

:

two things in a book that I'm working on.

448

:

Uh, one is that, um, you have to

direct with emotion, so explain what

449

:

you want the player to feel and, and

talk more about, you know, that level

450

:

of emotion that they would experience

and give context for where this

451

:

feeling's happening within the game.

452

:

So you might say, well, at

this moment, you know, the main

453

:

character just lost their mind.

454

:

Partner and they're devastated and

they don't want to go on and they've

455

:

completely given up And so that's we want

this feeling of isolation and loneliness

456

:

And then from there the composer can

come in and try to come up with a score

457

:

that works with that and Early on, you

might have, like you, like the way you

458

:

would talk to an actor, you wouldn't

say to the actor, like frown deeper, you

459

:

would express more how they're feeling.

460

:

Yeah, it's like, what's the, you know,

the classic lines, what's my motivation?

461

:

Right?

462

:

And so you have to talk

about what the motivation is.

463

:

And that goes along with the state,

the problem, not the solution.

464

:

Um, there's so many people on the

team who just love to solve problems.

465

:

And a lot of times, you know, they'll

be so close to working on something.

466

:

That, that you, you might come

in for five minutes and say,

467

:

well, we got this problem.

468

:

And if you try to force in a solution,

then they're just going to do it.

469

:

But they've probably been thinking

about this problem for like a full day.

470

:

And so they probably have a lot more

ideas that are better fit for solving it.

471

:

And of course the individual

contributors are going to have a larger

472

:

toolkit in their specific sub domain.

473

:

So moving on to your book,

Directing Video Games 101, right?

474

:

That's right.

475

:

Yeah, I've been working on this book for

six years now, which is kind of crazy.

476

:

That's amazing Yeah

It's uh, it's not easy.

477

:

Um working in in games and then

trying to you know Live a life

478

:

and then also work on a book.

479

:

So, uh, I I decided to put a book together

That was 101 tips and techniques And so

480

:

these are little things that i've learned

over the years and it's the book that I

481

:

wanted to have when I was about You know

It's a 15 in high school, wondering what

482

:

does a director do like a film director

back then there weren't game directors,

483

:

but I just kind of wrote that for my

younger self or whoever's out there.

484

:

Who's maybe curious about getting

the games, but then I also realized

485

:

that these are just common problems

that I often forget that directors

486

:

often forget and that creative.

487

:

Professionals can benefit from so they

are kind of those universal principles and

488

:

truths, uh, you know, anywhere from, um,

you know, know your core game loop to, um,

489

:

the art of the jump scare, uh, to what is

a story mcguffin and just elements like

490

:

that, you know, how to direct the players

attention, guide them through a level.

491

:

So I think there's a lot of

helpful things that season

492

:

professionals can learn from too.

493

:

Could you take us through some of the.

494

:

tips and techniques, maybe a two or three

that that you can share with our audience.

495

:

I guess directing attention is a good one.

496

:

Um, there's a lot of different ways to

guide people, you know, through a level.

497

:

Um, you know, an example might

be, uh, you can use breadcrumbs.

498

:

So if someone, Walks into a space and

you're kind of hoping, well, I want them

499

:

to go find the hidden treasure chest.

500

:

You can add like a bloody trail of

footprints and that will guide them over.

501

:

Or you might find this cool archway

that sort of frames a particular

502

:

location and so people tend to walk

through the archway and then they'll

503

:

be able to see this magnificent view.

504

:

Uh, another common, um, technique

is that you, and these are all,

505

:

this is actually all part of one

tip, what I'm describing right now.

506

:

Um, another technique is you put a dead

end At a really cool vista, so you,

507

:

you have them walk to the end of this T

junction and then they're forced to look

508

:

at this cool view and then they have to

like turn right or turn left to advance.

509

:

A little Final Fantasy moment right there.

510

:

Mm hmm, yeah.

511

:

Yeah.

512

:

And then a lot of times motion's

actually another key thing.

513

:

Anything that moves in the level,

people immediately look at it.

514

:

I think it's, we have this

instinctive response to determine

515

:

if something's a friend or foe.

516

:

Light as well, right?

517

:

Like I see a lot of bright

things, I kind of know.

518

:

Going over there.

519

:

Right.

520

:

Yeah.

521

:

Drawing a moss to a flame.

522

:

Yeah.

523

:

That's, that's there too.

524

:

Sometimes I'll play games with some

friends who aren't, who aren't gamers.

525

:

And, you know, I'm usually the

one playing and I was like,

526

:

how did you know to do that?

527

:

You know, they think that I'm like

brilliant, but in fact, I just

528

:

know the sort of grammar of what

to look at, you know, in the room.

529

:

Yeah.

530

:

Yeah, exactly.

531

:

If there's a flickering, uh, light bulb,

you know, in the room of dim lights,

532

:

that's probably where you need to go.

533

:

Right.

534

:

Right.

535

:

Right.

536

:

Yeah, absolutely.

537

:

Yeah, and I think that's the thing is

a lot of people have collective visual

538

:

and game grammar You know in their

subconscious and so that's something

539

:

that uh, that's another tip on just

not reinventing the wheel you know,

540

:

there's certain things that We as gamers

inherently know you expect The fire

541

:

button to be on the right trigger, you

know, don't move it to the left trigger.

542

:

Don't be clever and try

to move it somewhere else.

543

:

And it can be tempting just to try to

do something a little bit different.

544

:

You know, typically jump is always on X

if it's, it's the PlayStation and then

545

:

jump and swing or melee is on square.

546

:

And that's been kind of a standard.

547

:

Yeah.

548

:

So then I guess, uh, let's see,

another tip here would be just

549

:

kind of looking at various ones.

550

:

Uh, there's the class 100

left, so I know, I know.

551

:

I didn't.

552

:

I'm drawing a blank and stuff.

553

:

Um, actually, so, so one of them that I've

found is in terms of decision making is,

554

:

um, to sleep on, um, difficult problems.

555

:

Uh, the pressure that I think

a lot of directors face is that

556

:

they just want to make a quick

and decisive decision immediately.

557

:

And they think that if they do that, they

won't appear to be waffling or indecisive.

558

:

And this is just a common

leadership problem.

559

:

Uh, I've, I've sometimes made a rash

decision and then I had to kind of

560

:

go back on it and it's like, Oh,

all the troops are moving this way.

561

:

And then you're suddenly like, okay,

go back, go back or stop, stop.

562

:

And.

563

:

And that really can be demoralizing,

you know, if there are really simple

564

:

problems and that have like a low

impact then you should be very decisive

565

:

with those because When you reverse or

course correct on those it doesn't have

566

:

such a big impact and and part of it

is just um moving forward You have to

567

:

always keep production moving forward.

568

:

So you have to find that balance

between Okay, this is an easy problem.

569

:

We're going to make a decision.

570

:

We'll move forward with it.

571

:

And you know what, even if I made

the wrong mistake, it's not going

572

:

to be deadly to the project.

573

:

If you have like a really big meteor

issue, it's best to sleep on it,

574

:

talk to the leads, kind of gather

an opinion from the team and figure

575

:

out what's best to move forward.

576

:

And, and then explain that

and talk about your rationale

577

:

behind making that big decision.

578

:

So sleeping on is great.

579

:

People will know that you, you know,

are actually considering, you know,

580

:

And, and then explaining your rationale.

581

:

I mean, that's, that's something I

try to do when I'm making a decision

582

:

is just, even if I disagree with

you, I'll tell you some sort of why.

583

:

Because even if you don't agree with my

reason, at least you know that I've, you

584

:

know, in addition to hearing you, you

mentioned like, you know, you want to,

585

:

you know, express their reason as well.

586

:

Like, I know you want this because of

these reasons and, and that makes sense.

587

:

I'm going to go this way

because of this other thing.

588

:

And even if they disagree with

the, you know, relative importance.

589

:

You know, people will respect that you've,

you've, you know, considered all that.

590

:

Yeah.

591

:

Yeah.

592

:

They want to people, I think people

want to make sure that you're being

593

:

very thoughtful, you know, with

your decision and that's not just

594

:

completely off the cuff and that

you're not going to change your mind.

595

:

And they do like knowing what is that?

596

:

Why?

597

:

What is the motivation, um, behind it?

598

:

Yeah.

599

:

I think, um, yeah, I think that's,

Yeah, people also want to know how

600

:

it fits into the greater picture too.

601

:

You know, what is the context of

why this decision is being made?

602

:

How does this connect to everything else?

603

:

So, let's see, I got one

more tip for you here.

604

:

Alright, yeah, lay it on us.

605

:

Well, I think, um, I think the thing

that goes back to, one of them is

606

:

what I call finding your magic beans.

607

:

And this is early on in production.

608

:

But it's essentially those, uh, I

guess seeds that grow the project.

609

:

And this is something that we

learned, um, with Girl with a Stick.

610

:

Where we didn't really

have A great high concept.

611

:

We didn't, we didn't get something that

was that kernel of an idea that really

612

:

motivated the team and with ratchet

and clank and the credit goes to, um,

613

:

uh, Brian Hastings, our chief creative

officer, he said, I want to make a game

614

:

about an alien that travels from planet

to planet, collecting weapons and gadgets,

615

:

and that's what got everyone excited.

616

:

And what that gave people was

a, And that is a great idea.

617

:

There's just nothing, no way around it.

618

:

It gives you that who, what, and where,

you know, and suddenly The character

619

:

artists can start drawing aliens.

620

:

Designers can start coming

up with weapons and gadgets.

621

:

And the, uh, environment artists

can start coming up with worlds.

622

:

And so that was something that really

fueled the game and that we clung to

623

:

throughout the entire production process.

624

:

Do you think it can help people

in other parts of the industry

625

:

or even outside the industry?

626

:

Yeah, I wrote this book with the

idea that it would be a lot of broad

627

:

principles that, um, won't go out of date.

628

:

You know, I'd like to think

that 10 years from now, 20 years

629

:

from now, they'd still apply.

630

:

And I think that they apply with

for all facets of production.

631

:

I'm just simply being a leader or learning

how to work well with people on a team.

632

:

Very beneficial.

633

:

I think, um, you know, we all, You

know, a lot of times on these really big

634

:

projects, people are kind of these mini

creative directors, you know, the, the,

635

:

the senior designers or the designers

are heading up their own features.

636

:

And so they can certainly benefit from

some of those creative techniques.

637

:

I think, um, you know, every.

638

:

Creative director or leader stream is just

to be able to review a level and look at a

639

:

feature and say, wow, this is all working.

640

:

This is fantastic.

641

:

I don't have to give anything here.

642

:

You know, thank you.

643

:

And, and so I think, um, by being

your own mini creative director,

644

:

you can apply all these principles

and figure that stuff out.

645

:

You know, I was actually curious to,

to know if in the process of kind of

646

:

putting together this book, if all your

skills at, you know, working on things

647

:

like Ratchet and Clank, if you're able

to bring some of that into It's one

648

:

of those things, if you want to really

learn a subject well, try to teach it.

649

:

You know, I, I would often find

that I'd be reminded I'd be

650

:

working on a Ratchet Clank project.

651

:

Just be like, Oh, that's right.

652

:

You know, I, I need to, you

know, we've created like one of

653

:

my tips is creating a platypus.

654

:

And it's about trying to glom on all

these different ideas into one idea.

655

:

And it ends up becoming this like freak

of nature that doesn't make any sense.

656

:

Oh man, I've been there several times.

657

:

Yeah.

658

:

There's only one product that

everyone's working on, so it's like

659

:

their only chance to get this stuff in.

660

:

Yeah.

661

:

And they just want to kind of shove

it in or they, it's a great idea

662

:

on its own, but it doesn't, may

not work well with this other idea.

663

:

So those are like little things that

would just kind of pop up in my head.

664

:

I'm like, I need to write this

down and I need to remember this.

665

:

So that's part of where

this book came from.

666

:

I think you know for me It's just

important that we continue to learn and

667

:

and educate ourselves and i'm not just

saying this because I want people to buy

668

:

my book Recently kind of gone through a

lot of different changes with my path.

669

:

I became um, I worked on a virtual reality

project just recently called edge of

670

:

nowhere And there's a lot of examples

in the book on that, but I I think Found

671

:

that everything that I thought about

in storytelling kind of got turned on

672

:

its head with VR and that was really

exciting to be able to be in this new

673

:

arena to rethink my traditional methods

of how I would approach storytelling

674

:

and design and so I think that.

675

:

You know, I'm getting older and part

of me just wants to share some of this

676

:

wisdom that I've gained over 25 or so

years, but I also want to stay, um, agile

677

:

and be able to, um, learn new techniques

and, and just be open to new ideas.

678

:

And I think that's something

we need to continually do.

679

:

I agree.

680

:

You know, this podcast is my way

of, you know, both sharing and,

681

:

and continuing to grow myself.

682

:

So thank you very much for, for coming

on and I hope you'll come back again.

683

:

Yes, and I do have to mention

the website of my book too.

684

:

Of course, of course.

685

:

We'll also post it on the blog.

686

:

as well.

687

:

But yes, please.

688

:

It's anything else, anywhere else

you people can find you, Brian?

689

:

Oh, sure thing.

690

:

Yeah.

691

:

It's directing video games.

692

:

com.

693

:

So you can go there to sign up,

um, for updates on the book.

694

:

And then, um, I'm also at Brian

Allgaier, B R I A N A L L G E

695

:

I E R for my Twitter accounts.

696

:

So you can contact me there.

697

:

Excellent.

698

:

Well, thanks so much for coming on.

699

:

Thanks, Jordan.

700

:

It was my pleasure.

701

:

So, a couple things as we

close out this episode.

702

:

First of all, another thank you to

Brian for coming on the show, and also

703

:

for giving so much useful information

and sharing with the community here.

704

:

I really appreciate that, and I know

that a lot of our listeners are going

705

:

to get a lot out of this episode.

706

:

Now there were a couple interesting

things that popped out to me between

707

:

this episode and the previous

episode with Dave Roll, where they

708

:

were kind of like, um, harmonies.

709

:

So one of those was the economy

of design and wringing the

710

:

most out of each mechanic.

711

:

I thought it was interesting that,

you know, Dave, who's doing a lot of

712

:

mobile, casual, really focused on that.

713

:

as a way to, you know, be agile to

find what works best and to make

714

:

the most out of what works best when

you don't have a lot of resources,

715

:

when you don't have a lot of time,

when you don't have a huge team.

716

:

And then you had Brian who basically made

the same exact point, but in reference

717

:

to huge AAA games where you have enormous

resources, but moving the ship is a lot of

718

:

work and changing direction is incredibly

disruptive to huge numbers of people.

719

:

And also you have a case with these

bigger projects where, you know,

720

:

the level of sheen and shine you

need to put on each mechanic for

721

:

it to be complete is humongous.

722

:

So he and Dave both emphasized This

economy of design and really wringing

723

:

every last drop of value out of

each mechanic and certainly that's

724

:

something that, you know, when I

think of that kind of way of design,

725

:

I think of companies like Nintendo

that really put in a mechanic and

726

:

explore it and exhaust it completely.

727

:

So, I thought it was really

interesting the way they both talked

728

:

about that, and also, Brian and

Dave both mentioned Mark Cerny.

729

:

So, he's an industry legend, and I know

he's doing a lot of work with Sony now.

730

:

I am going to see about getting

him on the show, because I think it

731

:

would be amazing to interview him.

732

:

given the influence that he's

clearly had on the industry.

733

:

So, just a couple thoughts

to close out the interview.

734

:

What was interesting to you, and who

would you like to see on the show?

735

:

You can let me know, jordanatbrightblack.

736

:

co.

737

:

Thanks for listening, and I'll

see you on the next episode.

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Playmakers - The Game Industry Podcast

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