Episode 5

Hacking Kickstarter to Fund Your Game, with Lorne Lanning Part 2 of 2

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Lorne Lanning is an American game designer, director, writer and voice actor. He is also co-founder of Oddworld Inhabitants. He is best known for creating the Oddworld series including Abe's Abe's Exoddus, Munch's Oddysee, Stranger's Wrath and Oddworld: New 'n' Tasty! He is currently working on Oddworld: Soulstorm. In part 2 of our 2 part interview, Lorne discusses further into Kickstarter campaigns and crowdfunding. Visit www.playmakerspodcast.com to get access to the full blog post for this episode and much more!

Transcript
zypzlw:

Welcome to PlayMakers, I'm your host Jordan Blackman,

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and you're listening to episode 5.

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So this is part 2 of my interview

with Lorne Lanning, the game industry

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treasure, the I kind of want to call

him an icon, as he's either an icon or

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an iconoclastic, I can't really tell.

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In any case, the great Lorne Lanning,

this is part 2 of my interview with

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him, and on every interview I go

deep with the game industry leader

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to bring you information that helps

you stay at the top of your game.

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You're listening to PlayMakers.

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Okay.

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So this is part two of my interview

with Lorne Lanning, creator of Oddworld.

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And if you didn't hear part one, I

definitely want you to check that out

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because it's going to give you a lot

more context about Lorne and where

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he's coming from and what his message

is and what his art is all about.

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And I think all that stuff is key

to understanding what's coming up in

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part two, and that is how someone can.

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get started today and get

funding for their content,

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for their idea, for their IP.

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We also have a pretty wide

ranging discussion about the game

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industry, Nintendo, Apple, Google,

everything that's been happening.

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And we get the benefit of Lauren's

incredible experience at the cutting

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edge of the game industry for decades.

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Something to keep in mind is that we

recorded in:

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Switch and you'll see as you listen to

the interview why the timing is relevant.

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We talk about the state of Nintendo

and and obviously that has changed

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a bit over the past several months.

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If you want to make your game and

you want to make art and you want to

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succeed at it, you know, he talked about

in the first part of the interview,

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he talked about trying to build two

bridges at the same time, a business

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bridge where he's able to sustain his

business and be successful in that way.

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And a creative bridge where

he gets to have his message

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and share it with an audience.

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And that he was trying to

build both bridges at once.

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If you want to build both

bridges at once, you cannot miss

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either part of this interview.

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Here's part two with Lauren Lanning.

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I am contacted regularly by aspiring

designers, even proven designers,

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seasoned designers that want to keep

on getting their ideas that they feel

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passionate about into the games that

they create, and they're upset that

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they can't find anyone to support them.

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And occasionally it does happen.

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And I'm thinking of the Inuit game.

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That was released a couple of years ago,

never alone, never alone, that publisher,

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actually, uh, which is a new model,

basically trying to do the things that

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we're talking about, like shine light

on the plights of indigenous cultures,

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shine light on things that wouldn't

normally be, uh, considered, uh, viable,

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you know, highly marketable game content.

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It's not like we have an audience

saying, ah, next year, you know,

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I'm going to spend 50 on the Inuit.

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And any Inuit game that's made, you

know, but we do know that for racing, for

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shooting, for puzzles, we know X amount

of dollars is going to be spent next year.

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So when someone wants to come out of the

box and say, we're making a game about

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an Inuit life, you know, and try and shed

more life and compassion on the Inuit.

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Plight, you know, it's not one that

necessarily VCs are gonna step out and go.

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Oh, yeah We think that's gonna be a huge

money returner But it is their mission

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and they're trying to do more and more

games like that because they recognize

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that And these are seasoned guys, you

know, they came out of Activision, etc.

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But they recognize that at the

publishing level That the world

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is ripe for this kind of content.

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Games are perfect for

this kind of content.

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But just because they can't

compete with a shooter doesn't

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mean they shouldn't be made.

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So how does that get figured out?

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And really, digital distribution

allowed those things to start to happen.

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That's what I'm really interested

to hear your thoughts on.

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For those designers, whether they're

They're seasoned or, or relatively fresh

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who do want to do that, you know, who

don't necessarily have preexisting IP or

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following for what they've done so far.

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How do they kind of have their voice

heard or develop their voice, you know,

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because also if we're not developing

people's voices, you know, it takes

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time, you know, took them time to figure

out what a director was in film and how

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to develop direct directorial talent.

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And it's funny because right in the

beginning we saw pretty massive.

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Propaganda with film, right?

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So we, uh, you know,

in different ways, uh.

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And we had the studio system.

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Then you got the studio system, you

know, its own, own, uh, agendas.

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But you know, Hollywood's kind of

fascinating because it's a little

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bit sensitive subject to talk

about, but let's touch on it, is

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we were dealing with immigrants.

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I think we've been doing pretty

good on the sensitive subjects part.

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Okay.

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But, uh, you know, the early, I got a

great book on the, on the wall, which

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is called How the Jews Built Hollywood.

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By the way, I'm going to put

all the books and artists you've

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mentioned up on the website.

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Yeah.

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I think it's called, uh, How

the Jews Built Hollywood.

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And it's a fascinating book because you

were dealing with, at the time, really

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a minority that even though these,

these people were making money and

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successful in business, uh, they still

couldn't get into, uh, just saying,

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you know, my wife is Jewish, right?

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So I'm kind of, I'm not, I'm not

Jewish, but I understand a lot of them.

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And so they weren't allowed in the country

clubs, they, they were treated like, you

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know, second class citizens in social

scenes in Los Angeles, stuff like this.

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And what they started to do was shape

motion pictures, and let's take, like,

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It's a Wonderful Life as a great example.

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They started to shape stories

and want more stories that

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were identifying a country.

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They'd like to see, so they were kind

of making stories of a higher ideal of

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people getting along, being more tolerant,

being noble, being honest, you know, these

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different things in a, in a, in a more

fairness way of how they wanted to be

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treated and that reflected in the content.

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They made in green light, you know,

now granted it was all business and

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everyone's trying to make money.

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But in the beginning, there's some great

stories about this stuff, you know, Meyer

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and Goldwyn, what they went through,

what they cared about, what their own

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personal tragedies and successes were,

and, and the types of stories that they

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would be more interested in backing.

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So it's really sort of inspiring

stuff on the early foundational

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days of building the empire.

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I think it was called an empire

of their own, sorry, an empire

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of the title of the book.

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I don't believe that's

the title of the book.

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Yes.

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And, uh, it's kind of fascinating because

again, you're dealing with largely at that

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time, a discriminated class that found

a vehicle to portray what they wanted to

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see as a better fairness in the world.

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And it actually, you know, who's to

say how much impact Hollywood has had

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on the way we behave as a, as a group.

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culture today.

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And it's as fucked up as the

United States is, and it's

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severely dysfunctional right now.

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It is still the place where

people flee to, right?

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Even, you know, it's

kind of like Rome, right?

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Like if you were on the outskirts

of Rome, you were in real trouble.

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But if you went into the heart of

it, it was a lot more civilized, you

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know, like depending on your status.

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But the United States

is kind of like that.

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Like I meet Uber drivers from

Afghanistan all the time, from Iraq.

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Oh yeah.

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This is still the dream

of the world to come here.

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Yeah, you know, and so the United

States is like, it's so many things

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you can't summarize it as any one

thing because it's really, you know,

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it's a nation built by immigrants.

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Right.

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And that hasn't stopped.

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So my point is an empire of their

own was a great example of how an

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industry was built by people that

were being discriminated against.

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And the media that they

generated was not hateful, right?

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It wasn't like, It, you know, it

wasn't trying to stimulate unrest.

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It was trying to stimulate a higher

goal, a higher, higher tolerance.

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Personally, I find that, you know, really

fascinating and as a great example,

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you know, that with it, when we look

back, a lot of people, particularly

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old people go, what happened to the

good Hollywood movies, the good, you

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know, the meat and potatoes movies

that, you know, it's a wonderful

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life that you watched at Christmas

time and you just loved, you know.

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But, you know, the bad

ones all get forgotten.

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So it seems like there were just good

ones, but there are a lot of bad ones.

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And, and, you know, I don't, I'm not

gonna be able to, uh, name drop this too

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well, but I think, I feel like there is

still a tradition, especially in TV of

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kind of getting out different kinds of

people and making people comfortable a

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little bit ahead of mainstream society.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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The problem with TV.

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is that TV is dictated by the sponsors.

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And so, it is driven by advertising.

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The reason TV is free to the home

is it's driven by advertising sales.

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And if the advertisers have

any problem with the content

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you're displaying, you're out.

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That's it.

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You're out.

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So TV is only gonna get so

informative on the news, which

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is pretty much a joke today.

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It's absolutely a joke.

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I stopped watching it 30 years ago

and I got a lot smarter because of it.

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But I really rejected

newspapers, television news.

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It's just, you know, it's like when I

learned what was going on, I had no room

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to hear it, to fill my mind with bullshit.

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What do you pay attention to?

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I largely pay attention to whistleblowers,

people being prosecuted by governments,

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uh, people being represented

by human rights organizations.

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Whistleblowers are very interesting,

and alternative press, you know.

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So WikiLeaks?

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No, I think Wiki is, uh, I

think, Wiki is upholding a lot

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of the, uh, status quo stuff.

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I mean, really, if you know what's

going on in this world, I'm not going

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to say what's going on in this world,

but if you have a better idea and

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know for a fact what's going on, you

realize WikiLeaks is not, if they, if

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they claim to be what they really are,

they'd be revealing a lot more stuff.

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So the best we can do is Hillary sent

some emails that said, uh, so and so

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running another country is a jerk.

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I mean, please.

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Please, it's like, it's like, I

don't believe in the authentic

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ness of WikiLeaks, personally.

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Um, because the, the crimes are so much

greater than anything they've touched on.

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It's just kind of, you

gotta be kidding me.

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Um, I also, with, uh, Snowden, Why did

he give the information to journalists

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to piecemeal to us over time?

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I don't trust that either.

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I think Snowden's legitimate, but why

didn't he just open source it all?

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Why don't you let us go through it?

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Why don't we let a million

people pick through the results?

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What happens when we do

that with anything else?

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When we release a scientific

problem to the, to crowdsourcing,

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we solve it a lot faster.

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Any, any algorithm?

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He took an episodic model

to his, yeah, his league.

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So anyway, you know, I don't want

to trash these outlets, but quite

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frankly, I don't believe them as the

holy grails that they're outed to be.

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However, Snowden revealed, you know,

super important stuff to us and I

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think, uh, I just don't trust what's

coming out of Wikileaks, I think.

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You know, there's, I know for a

fact, there's many more dangerous

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things that we should be aware of.

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None of it has graced the pages of

WikiLeaks, so come on, who you kidding?

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Do you think, this is, this is kind of

going back to some game stuff, but do

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you think that any talented team could

craft a successful kind of Kickstarter?

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Do you need at this point celebrity or IP?

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I think you need visibility.

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So, I was having a talk.

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Just recently with someone who's

been very successful multiple

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times with the Kickstarter stuff.

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And he said, look, you have well known

designer proven, well known IP, you got

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the winning chemistry for Kickstarter.

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Outside of that, you have the most

successful ever on Kickstarter,

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which is Exploding Kittens.

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That Alon Lee was not necessarily a

household name for game designers, right?

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I mean, I was a fan of his.

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I knew the things he did.

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I think he's brilliant.

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But he wasn't necessarily like, Oh,

Elon Lee is doing Kickstarters, not

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drawing millions of people, right?

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But the cartoonist that he

had associated with did have

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a million Facebook followers.

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So there was a cartoonist who

did the exploding kit and stuff.

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And because of that, Mixed with

Ilan Lee's brilliant approach to

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ARG campaigning, Boom, they get

over 10 million on a Kickstarter.

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So, yeah, so, if you had something like,

I guess we could say that was a celebrity

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cartoonist, Being used for off case

example, you know, an out of spectrum

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example, deck playing cards, For, um,

You know, a magic like game, right?

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Card game.

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That was way out of the box,

but you had the, the science.

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So you had a guy who knew how to implement

science possibly better than anyone

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else in the world, Elon Lee, or Jordan

Weisman would be in the same class, right?

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They worked together.

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You, you, I'm sure you know

their history together.

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And then you had a heavily

followed cartoonist.

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Who, together, the cartoonist was able to

draw the eyeballs to the campaign, because

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if you were following him, he was able

to post on his Facebook, Hey, I'm doing

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this thing, if you want to get involved.

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And everyone's like, Ah, I

love your shit, you know?

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That draws it over, and then,

really, how they executed on it,

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making every tier an unlockable.

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Like they did a number of things.

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I talked to Alon after that success

and I asked him like, Hey man,

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can you tell me what you did?

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You know, and, uh, I did

the same with Chris Roberts.

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I did the same with Brian

Fargo and Tim Schafer.

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Like, you know, I'm out

there trying to learn, right?

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There's a case where I guess you had

a celebrity, it's the most successful

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Kickstarter of all time, and the celebrity

came not from the area you were trying to

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sell, although it would include the art.

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In the package, uh, and

they raised over 10 million.

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So the combination of celebrity and

science, I think enabled that to

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happen, but really because of social

following, not because of pop so

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much, you know, it wasn't like a Kim

Kardashian celebrity type, right?

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Which I'm sure if she did a

Kickstarter, you know, it would

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just be the most enormous ever for

the latest, you know, hair curl, I

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don't know, whatever it would be.

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Exploding kittens could

also work, actually.

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There you go.

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Hollywood explodes kittens.

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Yeah.

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I think it's a really tough sell.

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And I think it's gotten harder

because of the failures.

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And I think the failures can be

attributed to, you had a way.

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for people to basically

get money on a hope.

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I think they were always going

for less money than they needed,

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which is a really dangerous thing.

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You know, like we'd say, well,

you know, if we're gonna make

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a new game, we need 5 million.

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Well, who's going to do a

Kickstarter and ask for 5 million?

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You're not going to get it, but ask for

500, 000 and maybe you'll get 5 million.

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It's like, it's just crazy.

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They always say to ask for a really

small amount because people don't want

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to be part of a Kickstarter that fails.

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People only want to participate

in Kickstarter once they already

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see it's going to succeed.

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So it's a weird effect, right?

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You can't, and they're all going,

Oh, I want to back Geist and Uranus.

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It's like, eh, kinda you do, but

really you need to be led to it.

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You know, who are we kidding?

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So I think all that's a bit of a Uh,

really tricky navigation for the person

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doing the kickstarter, the group doing

the kickstarter, uh, but you have to

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have some avenue of support that's

going to bring the eyeballs because it's

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certainly not just going to come because

everyone's scouring every kickstarter

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that's available and finds yours

interesting, you have to be highlighted,

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you know this better than anyone with

your experience in free to play games,

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mobile games, Things like that, right?

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You gotta be, if you're going to have

an app that's going to go anywhere on

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an iPhone or Android, you have to be

featured by the Apple store, or you

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have to have some enormous outlet of

visibility somewhere else that you're

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drawing them to the Apple store.

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But without the acquisition,

without the acquisition.

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side handled, you're,

you're in deep water.

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Exactly.

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And you know, and I'm sure you actually

understand that science much better

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than I do, because you've had a lot more

experience and successes in those areas,

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where basically, you know, you're dealing

with like free product, where you have to

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have 100 million people playing so you can

monetize, you know, less than 20 fraction.

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Yeah, yeah, exactly.

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Which is, you know, a very different

philosophy that we've been, that

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I've been, uh, uh, executing on.

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Um, just, you know, I'm still a little

bit stuck in the old world, quite

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frankly, in terms of the type of content,

the story games, uh, premium price

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product is so different categories.

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My, my admittance there is that I

don't really, I don't understand

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the sciences of free to play as

well as people who executed on them.

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You know, one way to think

about it though, is that it

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is really the same thing.

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Let's say you're marketing a

giant blockbuster film, you

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have all that marketing content.

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That's your free content.

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All those trailers that you're showing

people, all those ads, everything you're

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doing to motivate people to make that

final move of going to see the movie.

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That's the monetization step, but

you've given them all this free

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content interviews on there on TV

shows, commercials, the billboards,

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all that stuff is generating.

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It's just a, it's just sort of one

way to kind of conceptualize it.

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To that point, let's say when designers

have asked me or small teams that want

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to, uh, do Kickstarters and they say,

or even get publishing deals, they're

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going, well, you know, our game and we

believe in it and it's an idea right now.

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We might have a little bit of a prototype,

but, uh, this is how we want to do it.

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This is what we want to make happen.

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And what I'll say is, well, what.

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Is really special about it, right?

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And so let's say it's animation.

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Maybe let's say that's really where

your guy's skill set comes from.

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You do something

extraordinary with animation.

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And in some degrees I'd put

like Ori in the Blind Forest.

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It's like an animation art.

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Spectacle of you know it's just a

wonderful really wonderful that's where

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the strength was and say so if it's

that then where can you make before you

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start a crowdfunding where can you make

some small small examples little tiny as

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possible examples let's think you know

you to like attention span and maybe it's

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animation that your excellence is pretty

unique and if we could see it in the

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game maybe stimulate people and I think

right away to the first imagery I saw

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of a cuphead right I don't know cuphead.

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It's the Fleshinger type animation from

like the, you know, early 20th century.

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Oh, like Popeye style.

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Yeah.

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So it's like original Popeye style.

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And as soon as you saw it,

you're like, holy shit.

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This is like 1920s

animation in a video game.

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It perfectly works.

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Like, oh my God, they, they could

create a whole genre out of this if

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they wanted to run with it and they

should, I don't think it's released yet.

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And it's been working on it for a

while, but it's just really cool.

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Right?

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The second you see that.

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You could get animation fans all over

the world interested in your game.

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When I first saw the little Flash

version of Limbo, you know, it was

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like five years before it came out.

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I was waiting.

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I was just waiting with my money.

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And what's the new one now?

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Inside, I think?

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Yeah, inside.

360

:

Yeah, and people are

just loving it, right?

361

:

Voting it, you know, best

game on Xbox, stuff like this.

362

:

But the point being is, like,

Let's say that little clip that you

363

:

saw of Limbo got you interested.

364

:

And if it said, follow us here,

we'll be doing a Kickstarter soon.

365

:

We'll tell you when it is, you

know, maybe say, sign me up.

366

:

I want to know more about this, right?

367

:

There's some no man's sky.

368

:

I did the same thing.

369

:

No man's sky.

370

:

Yeah.

371

:

Let's take Cuphead as the example,

because five seconds of footage.

372

:

Could tell you the promise of the game

because you get it when you see it, right?

373

:

There's something extraordinary and

extraordinarily different, uh, even

374

:

though we're familiar with everything

it's doing But we just haven't seen

375

:

that combination of it done in the game

before so when we see that that could

376

:

have tried Let's say that's a little

clip and you're trying to make cupheads.

377

:

Let's use cupheads as the game You

want to make as an example, right?

378

:

It hasn't been done yet And you're a

group and what I'm telling them is I

379

:

say create your five second You Test

you 15 second test something that shows

380

:

you different in your special and then

don't put it on kickstarter go into

381

:

the animation communities that are

already sharing this stuff go into.

382

:

Animator dot com you know the animation

collective go go into these different

383

:

places say hey guys we saw this working

on this thing we hope to get this started

384

:

as a real project next year please follow

us please like us and if it's cool.

385

:

The animators are going to

support you if it's cool.

386

:

Right?

387

:

If it's subpar, you're not going to

get your friends might support you,

388

:

but strangers aren't going to, but

if it's cool and quality, you're

389

:

going to start getting some traction.

390

:

So somewhere, even if you don't have

celebrity, even if you don't have

391

:

brand, you have to find an end point

to get an audience to support you.

392

:

And even if you're crowdfunding,

the end point is not going

393

:

to be Kickstarter itself.

394

:

You've got to get that

started somewhere else.

395

:

So let's say it's an animation community.

396

:

Let's say you're going to do a game,

but it's all going to be in sand art.

397

:

Or finger painting or something, you

know, then, then put it into the hobbyist

398

:

community that's into finger pointing,

get thousands of followers to support

399

:

it, then do your Kickstarter, you know,

so you have some traction coming in

400

:

that's coming from a segment of the

audience, which would be interesting

401

:

it that's giving you a support.

402

:

You're not just cold stepping

right into it X amount of time till

403

:

it's over and hopefully you win.

404

:

That's great advice.

405

:

Well, I try.

406

:

You know, sometimes.

407

:

We'll wait for the

Sandark game to come out.

408

:

Yeah, the finger painting game.

409

:

Which is kind of perfect for, you know,

touchpads when you think about it.

410

:

True.

411

:

So, a couple quick questions.

412

:

You've been super generous

with your time, Lawrence.

413

:

So, thank you very much.

414

:

My pleasure with the technology

that's coming down and starting

415

:

to get mainstream acceptance.

416

:

Finally, you know, we're seeing AR

with Pokemon go and even geolocation.

417

:

These are, these are things people have

been talking about going mainstream for,

418

:

for six years or something like that.

419

:

And VR now finally, you know, in the

consumer's hands, what's exciting to you.

420

:

What do you think are the changes

coming in the next five to 10 years?

421

:

You know, it's all kind of

exciting in different ways, right?

422

:

Like, when we really get focused, we

can go, Oh, that's, you know, there's

423

:

different slices here that we can get

excited about different components.

424

:

So, across the board, you know,

I'm pretty excited about VR.

425

:

I'm pretty excited about AR, which

I think is going to be bigger.

426

:

But it's going to be harder, a lot

bigger because composite reality is

427

:

a million times more valuable than

teleported reality, meaning alternative,

428

:

uh, you know what I'm talking about,

like being able to walk and do email

429

:

with my cell phone and tweet is a lot

more valuable than having to be at

430

:

the desktop, adding value to reality.

431

:

It's more valuable than just

some total fantasy reality.

432

:

Yes.

433

:

And, uh, or one where I have

to be stationary based, which

434

:

is basically VR, because VR is

not safe to move around, right?

435

:

And it's, it's mostly solitary

for now, whereas AR seems much

436

:

easier to kind of make shared.

437

:

Right.

438

:

Easier to make shared and harder

to deploy and have a basic platform

439

:

for, to do, where you could just

walk down the street and see it.

440

:

Yeah.

441

:

That's the endgame is Minority Report.

442

:

You know, you're walking

around, you got contact lenses.

443

:

If I want to see where there's

pizzas on sale as I walk down the

444

:

street, each one will just beep.

445

:

You know, I'll see that pizza place,

but then I'll see it's 3D, computer

446

:

graphic, holographic, uh, uh, chubby

Italian guy tossing pizza dough.

447

:

Flipping it into outer space and

they're coming back down and landing

448

:

on his hands and, and all that is

happening in virtual space, but right

449

:

on top of the pizza store, right?

450

:

Like, that shit's coming.

451

:

Yeah.

452

:

Where, just imagine, uh, I put on

my glasses and now I see all the

453

:

neon, I take it off and now I don't.

454

:

That's what's coming.

455

:

I mean, Pokemon Go is pretty close.

456

:

You've got the training camps and

now stores are like putting up signs.

457

:

To let people know, they give

you a discount if you put a lure.

458

:

So if you're willing to like bring Pokemon

to their store, they will give you a deal.

459

:

You know, it's amazing how sometimes

Nintendo, right, with all the

460

:

wrong decisions they've been

making and wrong customer practices

461

:

that they've been employing.

462

:

Which is basically self evident in

what's been happening with the brand.

463

:

Um, that they can still come up with

something as innovative as Pokemon Go.

464

:

But if it were a new thing, I think

it would have fell flat on its face

465

:

if it weren't based on the Pokemon.

466

:

I mean, and there have been

other pretty similar products.

467

:

I think this is actually based

on something called Ingress,

468

:

which is like a Google.

469

:

Yeah, I'm not sure.

470

:

Yeah.

471

:

But nobody was using

it, so what's the fun?

472

:

Yeah, you know, it's kind of like, uh, I

don't think Henry Ford was the first one

473

:

to invent the car, but I think he's the

first one to really make it happen, right?

474

:

It's kind of the same thing.

475

:

It's like, well, uh, you got

to have a number of components

476

:

really working for you to get the

momentum to hit a successful launch.

477

:

Nintendo certainly got the muscle.

478

:

What they've been demonstrating lately

is they lack the savvy to understand what

479

:

they should do to keep the momentum going.

480

:

Well, to just keep developers interest

in their platforms, I mean, because

481

:

for the most part, developers have

lost interest in their platforms, which

482

:

says a lot about where they're headed.

483

:

And this isn't on their platform.

484

:

Yeah, which is smart, right?

485

:

Because it is smart.

486

:

So who knows where they're going.

487

:

I hope they pull it out.

488

:

Uh, having released a product on their

platform recently, I have little hope

489

:

that they will pull it out because

it's a philosophical question.

490

:

Problem?

491

:

I mean, uh, just in, in two seconds.

492

:

So, we released a product.

493

:

It's an 80, 80 plus Metacritic

for Is this Stranger's Wrap?

494

:

No, this is, uh, New and Tasty.

495

:

New and Tasty, okay.

496

:

So we bring it to Nintendo.

497

:

So we bring an 80 plus product that

took us a lot of pain to get onto

498

:

their platform, but they won't give

you any real promotions if you weren't

499

:

day and date with the other platforms.

500

:

So, they don't even understand.

501

:

How their wonky ass hardware system

has created almost an impossibility

502

:

for anyone to want to invest all the

extra cash to make the title that

503

:

they're trying to make run on PS4, Xbox

One, PC be compatible with this thing,

504

:

their, their box, which is, which is

just this, like, what are you thinking?

505

:

And yet, if you don't do, if you don't

have day and date release, they're not

506

:

going to, they're Promote you on their

store, even though there's no products

507

:

for their audience So their gamers are

in a total drought of quality content

508

:

But Nintendo's marketing practices will

not help you promote better Product

509

:

offering to their audience because

of some silly policy, which basically

510

:

brings us back to they're making worse

:

511

:

I mean, it's like, if you see that,

Okay, so let me just ask this question.

512

:

So your customers have

not enough games to play.

513

:

Yes or no?

514

:

Well, yeah.

515

:

Okay.

516

:

And so when someone brings games, invests

money to bring games to your platform, are

517

:

you gonna let your customers know about

them because they don't have enough games?

518

:

Okay.

519

:

We're writing you off because you

don't get what is making web 3.

520

:

0 work.

521

:

Why Sony won this round for having

the insight to understand how to

522

:

support self publishing, which I

think was really driven by what the

523

:

mobile companies had already done.

524

:

Apple starting off with free dev,

you know, basically free APIs, right?

525

:

Free dev kits and free apps, free apps.

526

:

So you're going to stay in this old

world where you want to set this high

527

:

bar that What's happening is, well,

your last two systems, basically, you

528

:

don't have third party support for.

529

:

Why did that happen?

530

:

Now you have people, customers, that

have bought your product, and when

531

:

a new game comes out that's actually

good, and people actually took the time

532

:

to make it run well on your console,

you're not going to do anything to

533

:

promote that product into your audience.

534

:

And the answer is,

that's right, we're not.

535

:

And you go, okay, now, why should

anyone support your products now?

536

:

As developers, and that's

the big lingering question,

537

:

and the answer is, no one is.

538

:

I have this theory, I don't

really have a name for it, let's

539

:

call it the circle of consoles.

540

:

And, and the idea is that all the major

platform holders go through a cycle where

541

:

they're popular, they're easy to develop

for, so they become popular, then they

542

:

have to deal with a glut of content,

so they close down the, um, pipeline.

543

:

This is not so much true in the case

of the Apples and the Androids, more,

544

:

more of a Sony, Nintendo, Microsoft.

545

:

And so they become filled with rules.

546

:

One of the other platform holders sees

that gap, the developers are finding

547

:

it annoying to work on that platform.

548

:

Their next platform is very easy

to work on, and you have a shift.

549

:

Which is why, how Microsoft took

it from Sony, Sony took it from

550

:

Nintendo, you know, and now Sony

took it back from Microsoft.

551

:

Yeah, yeah.

552

:

And now we're getting into that zone

where I call it the iron curtains of

553

:

gaming, which is you, you basically

owned a territory, which was basically

554

:

a format, a device, Xbox 360.

555

:

And then you said, you

can't self publish here.

556

:

You got to go through our, our big retail

partners, which is basically the big

557

:

publishers who Delivering disks, but, uh,

as an indie developer, we're not gonna,

558

:

we're not going to let you self publish.

559

:

Now, Sony started enabling that

to happen, right, even on the PS3.

560

:

Um, and Steam was, was really first,

outside of the mobile companies.

561

:

And so what happened, they got beat

up so bad, they had to adapt quick.

562

:

This is the way the world is moving this

great book it's called i think it's called

563

:

nudge and it's on um it's about silicon

valley business practices in it and

564

:

identifies sort of the shift from the old

world which was like microsoft wins the

565

:

operating system game you know war and.

566

:

Or actually creates it, right?

567

:

It creates the operating system

more and, uh, and in such, then

568

:

it's about becoming a monopoly

and controlling everything, right?

569

:

Which is a large way, the way that, uh,

Nintendo started, but with a more sort

570

:

of insular model that didn't allow such

scale, even though they had huge success.

571

:

Then the world comes along and

then you start having eBay's open.

572

:

And what they're about is they're

about individuals building

573

:

business on top of their business.

574

:

Right.

575

:

So you have now Google ads, eBay stores,

uh, you know, et cetera, et cetera.

576

:

Then you have Facebook allowing

companies like Zynga to build their

577

:

business on top of their business.

578

:

So businesses become platforms for

other businesses, not just businesses

579

:

become successful monopolies that

you can try to make deals with.

580

:

You know, and it's a whole different way.

581

:

So the, so the way is, and this is

where we saw, you know, the term

582

:

of APIs really proliferate, right?

583

:

This is, uh, it happened more in the

social landscape, you know, the, the, the

584

:

social media tools out there were like,

Hey, get our API and write your own shit

585

:

into here and see if you can sell it on

our network, you know, eBay being the

586

:

perfect example, you could create your

own store, you could sell your own shit.

587

:

You could handle it all yourself,

but if it weren't for eBay, you

588

:

never would have been able to do it.

589

:

And that was a fundamental shift

in terms of empowering people to

590

:

build businesses on top of other

businesses versus, uh, an Apple,

591

:

let's just take Apple in that example.

592

:

So they know we need to

highlight the best product.

593

:

Not just our product, we need

to highlight the best products.

594

:

So our audience knows how

great a device we have, right?

595

:

So then you have your Apple store

highlighting the top rated products.

596

:

And our developers know that they can get.

597

:

You know, attention, and they can succeed.

598

:

That's right.

599

:

So, when we build our product for

those devices, we say, which in the

600

:

case of us with Stranger's Wrath and

Munch's Odyssey, we say, it's got to

601

:

be brought there in an excellent way.

602

:

And if it is, we'll get highlighted.

603

:

Because if we aren't highlighted,

we're not going to sell anything.

604

:

If we do get highlighted,

we have a chance.

605

:

But in order to get highlighted,

we need to have high quality.

606

:

Well, that didn't matter with Nintendo.

607

:

Because they're stuck

in the old world, right?

608

:

Right.

609

:

Whereas the new world is like,

The customer getting our customers

610

:

that bought into our install base

is more important than just trying

611

:

to sell them our own software.

612

:

So this is what Apple recognized,

Android, eBay, you know, you

613

:

go on across the board, right?

614

:

What types of Web 3.

615

:

0 businesses allowed themselves

to be a platform for other people

616

:

to reliably build businesses on?

617

:

Now, you can argue, well, you know,

Facebook changed the dial and screwed

618

:

Zynga, you know, after they were

mega successful, those things happen.

619

:

But, but they, they, I think they,

they, they had to do what they did.

620

:

Facebook.

621

:

I, I agree.

622

:

You know, it became spam heaven, right?

623

:

Yeah.

624

:

I was deleting friends that were

sending me farm bill invites.

625

:

Exactly.

626

:

Exactly.

627

:

Not blocking the message,

deleting the friend, right?

628

:

It was like, what the

fuck is all this noise?

629

:

Um, but the point being is

that when we look at the

630

:

future, it's really about that.

631

:

If you're going to have a platform and

you try to keep it so behind your own

632

:

iron curtain, that when even other people

come there trying to make Your customer's

633

:

happy, and you don't do anything to

facilitate that ability, your lunch is

634

:

going to get eaten by someone else who is.

635

:

And so, you know, that's very much, I

think, where Nintendo's left itself today.

636

:

And hopefully they pull it out.

637

:

I mean, you know, it's a

legacy in gaming, right?

638

:

They pulled it out from the

disaster that Atari had created.

639

:

And, uh And they pulled

it out from the GameCube.

640

:

Disaster.

641

:

I mean, I love the GameCube as a player,

but, uh, from a business standpoint,

642

:

yeah, so with all this, uh, you know,

time and lessons, I think we see another

643

:

familiar pattern emerge, which is

the older they are, the more they get

644

:

entrenched in an older legacy with, uh,

you know, with older dysfunctions and

645

:

they, and out of momentum and scale and.

646

:

You know, solidification of large

organizations, bureaucracies.

647

:

They try to keep old business practices

into the future, and that, what do we see?

648

:

Someone else eats their lunch.

649

:

Remember when Netscape?

650

:

Remember when people mentioned Netscape?

651

:

You know?

652

:

Well, Nintendo really created the

whole I, I believe they, it was

653

:

their idea that, you know, the, the

publisher should pay for all the

654

:

manufacturing costs to Nintendo.

655

:

Had Atari not started?

656

:

I'm not sure.

657

:

It was before my time.

658

:

I'm not sure either.

659

:

Yeah.

660

:

Remember the seal of approval?

661

:

You had to have it, like, officially.

662

:

Yeah, yeah, no matter what they had to

manufacture the cartridges, but it was the

663

:

same with our Atari, like it wasn't until

PlayStation, I believe, I don't know if

664

:

the NES, what was the NEC model that was

out there, NEC, uh, the turbo graphics,

665

:

yeah, turbo graphics, I think you even had

to go through them to print your discs,

666

:

but it wasn't really, well, in consoles,

you still have to pay a licensing fee,

667

:

the licensing fee, your discs, yeah, but

they could have charged licensing fee on

668

:

sale instead of a manufacturer, Uh, yeah,

but then they would have carried the risk.

669

:

The financial risk for

the manufacturer, right?

670

:

Well, you could pay for the manufacturer,

but not pay for the license.

671

:

Until it sells.

672

:

That would have been nice.

673

:

Maybe just, yeah.

674

:

That would have been nice.

675

:

Yeah, because even I'm thinking

Abe's Odyssey, we're paying, what,

676

:

750, 700 ish per licensing fee

to manufacture a 99 cent disc?

677

:

Well, yeah.

678

:

And so this creates the environment where

everyone is so excited to go digital.

679

:

Right?

680

:

You know?

681

:

Right.

682

:

And you get, you know, all the, all

the hassles with, uh, you know, cost

683

:

of goods to, to physical retail, right.

684

:

And all the limitations, but digital

has been a massive breath of fresh

685

:

air in a lot of different ways.

686

:

And I think because of it, it's allowed

us to rebuild a business that, that, uh,

687

:

like I said, unless I was going to go

out and get financing and really, you

688

:

know, prove to investors where I was

going to make them a lot more money,

689

:

which would have been my day to day life.

690

:

just ensuring that that money came back.

691

:

And if that meant turning a story in the

war story instead of a noble story, you

692

:

know, that's what I would have had to do.

693

:

Instead, we were able to use the

power of the brand to redistribute

694

:

content that we own, to build financial

resources, to be able to then go and

695

:

start executing on newer content,

getting to where we are now, where we're

696

:

really delivering brand new content.

697

:

And so as far as that new

content goes, what's next?

698

:

Uh, we got.

699

:

Soulstorm, it's not a remake, but

it's inspired by Abe's Exoddus.

700

:

The short of it is this, is I wanted

to retell that story because basically

701

:

time, money, and business shaped it

into something was, was not the original

702

:

vision of how Abe's Quintology was

going to unfold, which is why at the

703

:

time I had this story about Soulstorm

brew and addictions and this and that.

704

:

Basically Abe's Odyssey was

a story about how the free.

705

:

The slaves wake up and free themselves

of their oppressors, and Abe's exodus

706

:

was really going to be part two of that,

which was, and then the slaves wake up

707

:

to the fact that their own habits and

addictions bring their own oppression.

708

:

Wow.

709

:

And so then they have to free

themselves from themselves.

710

:

Story of my life right there.

711

:

Oh, I wouldn't know

anything about it, right?

712

:

Yeah, yeah, so, you know, having some

experience in these things, but in

713

:

reality what happened was Exodus just

wound up being a game we had to get done

714

:

in nine months, and, uh, as a result,

scripts due next week, and it's gotta be

715

:

executable in nine months, type of thing.

716

:

And it wound up being a story.

717

:

The team did a great job, so

there's no baggage there, but it

718

:

wound up being a story that was

not what I planned on having as

719

:

the second piece in the Quintology.

720

:

And so it sort of threw my intent

of the big epic story, the five

721

:

piece story that I wanted to tell.

722

:

And when we made New and Tasty,

uh, we asked the audience, we

723

:

said, if we succeed in this, what

else would you want us to do?

724

:

To make and they said do the

same thing the exodus I mean

725

:

they say yeah new content.

726

:

We're like well We can't really

afford new content And then we said

727

:

but what would you like to mason?

728

:

They said we'll do the same thing to

exodus if you can do a good job with

729

:

new and tasty And then we did a good job

with new and tasty And it was successful

730

:

and I was like shit kind of promised

them we'd do exodus, but I really want

731

:

to change it I really want to change

it back to an original vision of what

732

:

that story was supposed to be and then

the gameplay that would Go with it.

733

:

So we dove into it thinking we'd

start doing a remake You And then

734

:

we got some mechanics working, uh,

that are pretty, pretty wild stuff.

735

:

And we went, okay, shit, we just dug

our hole and now we're building a

736

:

whole brand new game that's facing

a story about brew and addictions.

737

:

Uh, and it will still take place with

some of these facilities and in concept,

738

:

Soulstorm Brewery, you know, rupture.

739

:

A re imagining.

740

:

A re imagining.

741

:

So it's a whole different take that is

inspired by that original, uh, You know,

742

:

stories, so to speak, but it's getting

back to what the original intent was, so

743

:

it's actually part two of the Quintology.

744

:

But I want to be careful in

saying that until it's out.

745

:

Okay.

746

:

Which I just kind of blew,

but really, that's my intent,

747

:

is that it really is that.

748

:

And, uh, so far so good,

so fingers crossed.

749

:

And, and we definitely took on a much

bigger hit on cost and energy and time

750

:

to, uh, you know, try and make it happen.

751

:

And it's interesting.

752

:

This gets back to your original

business stories in the beginning.

753

:

So we had to ask yourself, well, what's

the risk and how do we execute and,

754

:

and where do we fall out on this?

755

:

And we decided that the biggest risk was

not going fresher, cooler, more intense.

756

:

That was a bigger risk.

757

:

And we're not.

758

:

An entity that spreads its bets because

we don't have enough bets to spread.

759

:

So we got to make sure

that what we bet on wins.

760

:

And so it really has to be high quality.

761

:

If you look at the Metacritic

on the Oddworld games, you know,

762

:

it's, it's, uh, consistently in the

eighties, but you really, you know

763

:

how hard it is to make games, man.

764

:

It's really, you really got

to be committed to delivering

765

:

as excellent as you can.

766

:

with losing all the sleep

that it takes to get there.

767

:

So that's what we're working on now.

768

:

We really, we really dug in

deeper than we were expecting to.

769

:

I think the audience will be really happy.

770

:

Our job is a lot harder.

771

:

I hope the audience will be happy.

772

:

Our job is a lot harder.

773

:

The game is going to cost more.

774

:

And it's a, it's a big risk,

but we got to make it great.

775

:

And that's kind of brings us back to,

if we can make it great, I think we

776

:

can, We can count on a two X return

and anything above that would just

777

:

be wonderful and keeps us in business

longer and lets us to have more freedoms.

778

:

But our ultimate sort of financial

goals on our relatively conservative,

779

:

you know, and it's and it's kind of

weird too, because we're building

780

:

stuff that, you know, we're shipping

20 pounds product in a market today

781

:

where really you should be shipping one.

782

:

And fostering one pound of product

into the audience, learning from the

783

:

audience, refining on it really the

way free to play does better, right?

784

:

You know, you don't build a

triple a 20 pounds product and

785

:

then dump it into the audience.

786

:

You have something smaller.

787

:

You're testing.

788

:

You're learning.

789

:

You're iterating faster.

790

:

And if it hooks, if it catches, then

you're really feeling it and hopefully.

791

:

You understood enough of it that

you know where it's going, you

792

:

know, so we're still building like

that premium priced indie product.

793

:

It comes in the box.

794

:

It's not, it's not free to play.

795

:

It's not going to have the sales

potential of a hit free to play.

796

:

But, you know, it's the safer bet for

us at this time, but it's a lot of

797

:

work for for less returns, you know,

when we're honest to ourselves, right?

798

:

But you're telling your story,

you're saying what you want to say.

799

:

And, um, like we said earlier,

2X is a pretty good X, you know.

800

:

2X is not a bad X, you know.

801

:

If it was a house, you'd buy

it in a second, you know.

802

:

Yeah.

803

:

But you really have to

keep that quality bar high.

804

:

And I think you gotta

keep some surprises high.

805

:

And you gotta make people feel your

love of the building of the product.

806

:

Or playing it.

807

:

And then at the end of the day, it's

got to be, you know, all the highfalutin

808

:

stuff, you know, the, the philosophical

stuff we were talking before that lets

809

:

us go home and sleep at night, you

know, whatever it gets us through the

810

:

day, all that is really interesting,

uh, until you don't have a good product

811

:

that's good entertainment playing game.

812

:

Right?

813

:

And then all those ideas didn't

mean anything because you have

814

:

something that no one wants.

815

:

So it's gotta be a good piece of what

it's original intent is, which is

816

:

a great game, it's fun to play, and

you can have fun whether you really

817

:

digest it at deeper levels or not.

818

:

And that's what it's gotta be.

819

:

First, and then hopefully it has, you can

embed the layers that you want to make it

820

:

deeper so that you have, uh, hopefully,

you know, you're, you're, you're hooking

821

:

a fan base, a generation with some more

memorable hooks, and then they hopefully

822

:

support you, you know, thereafter.

823

:

And that's a lot of the good currency.

824

:

The sort of human currency that we're

riding on is a lot of people believe

825

:

that, you know, we actually do put

our heart and soul in it, try to do

826

:

a good job, try to respect them as

a gamer customer, you know, player.

827

:

And so far it's working, you know, I

have no illusions that, you know, I

828

:

might go broke on this one, man, you

know, there's never any illusions.

829

:

The longer you're in the business, the

more, you know, the upsets can happen.

830

:

Well, you never know what's going to

happen, but I think there's no way

831

:

somebody could listen to this interview

and not know that you're, you're putting

832

:

your heart and your soul into what you do.

833

:

Well, I appreciate that.

834

:

I appreciate that.

835

:

Thanks a lot, Lorne, for coming on

and it's been great talking to you.

836

:

It's been very inspiring for

me personally, and I'm sure

837

:

for the audience as well.

838

:

That was part two of the

interview with Lorne Lanning.

839

:

After something like that, there's so

much that goes through my mind, so much

840

:

I feel like I could share with you guys.

841

:

But let me just close

with this passing thought.

842

:

I think that When you think of these

great creatives in the game industry,

843

:

you often think that they're just

thinking about the game and just

844

:

thinking about the message and just

thinking about graphics, gameplay,

845

:

game mechanics, all that sort of stuff.

846

:

And of course they are thinking

about that stuff, but you can tell

847

:

from the interview with Lauren, you

know, from everything to the art that

848

:

inspires him to the message that's in

his game, to his deep understanding

849

:

of the platforms and the players.

850

:

You kind of got to have

the whole picture, right?

851

:

You got to understand the creative

side and you also got to understand

852

:

the business side That is a theme

we've already seen in the interviews

853

:

and that is certainly a big theme

for this show Sometimes you can

854

:

get lost in the business world.

855

:

Sometimes you can get lost in the creative

side You got to keep both pieces in mind.

856

:

That's what playmakers is all about

and thanks for being part of the

857

:

show so far again, all the links to

the People and resources and tools

858

:

and movies and all the stuff Lauren

talked about in the interviews is

859

:

up on the website playmakerspodcast.

860

:

com.

861

:

Check it out and I will see

you in the next episode.

862

:

Thanks for listening.

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Playmakers - The Game Industry Podcast

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