Managing Your Game Industry Career, with Marc Mencher

Jordan: 00:00

Hey, what's up? This is Jordan Blackman, and you're listening to the Playmakers Podcast. In every episode, I interview a game industry expert and dive deep into their knowledge so you can learn something new.

This week, we've got Marc Mencher, game industry recruiter extraordinaire, and author of books including Get in the Game and Game Creation and Careers. If you want to know about breaking into the job you want or how to manage your career, this is the guy who will help you get it done. We talk about all that and much more in this week's episode, so stay tuned.

It's funny because at the top of the intro there, I didn’t even mention what Marc’s probably best known for, which is GameRecruiter.com. Marc is a fascinating guy. You don’t meet too many recruiters who actually started in game development themselves as engineers, who have the passion Marc has for what he does, and the insight and experience that he brings. So we focus in this interview on the perspective of people managing their own careers in the industry. I know Marc would also be a fascinating guest to talk about running a studio, hiring, and all that, but we focus more on the other side of that.

We talk about how recruiting actually works. If you've been contacted before and you’re curious about how it’s working on the inside of the recruitment process—how they’re paid and how those deals work—well, there are different ways they get it done, and those ways give different kinds of recruitment experiences.

Jordan: 01:39

So, Marc breaks down what it's like on that side of the table to give you more insight. We also get Marc’s incredible experience on how to strategize and develop your career, what you should be doing to plan five and ten years ahead. We talk about the process of going out and looking for a gig, and the importance of handling social media correctly in today’s world, where everything is online. He also shares some tips for LinkedIn, and finally, we discuss the importance of doing due diligence on the company you're going to work with.

Getting a job is not just a one-way thing where you're applying and they’re approving. It's really a two-way street. You need to do your due diligence on the organization, and we talk about that too. So, there’s a lot in this episode, especially for those of you thinking about managing your career over the next five to ten years. You’re going to get a lot out of this.

With that, let’s go to the interview with Marc.

Jordan: 02:44

Marc, welcome to Playmakers. Great to have you on.

Marc: 02:47

Thank you. Thank you. Great to be here today.

Jordan: 02:49

You were just telling me how you've been in the industry for 30 years. How many of those years have you been in the recruiting part of the business?

Marc: 02:54

I started off as a game programmer 30 years ago. So I worked on some of the first games ever released in the North American market. I'm not even going to mention the names at this point because you can look it up on Wikipedia, and frankly, it ages me. So, yeah, 10 years as a developer, and then 20 years as a recruiter in the industry.

Jordan: 03:11

Is that Falcon 1? I’ve got your Wikipedia page right here in front of me.

Marc: 03:19

Yeah, things like that. So, it's the start of the games. You know, today when you look at games, they're just so much more robust.

Jordan: 03:27

So 30 years in the industry, 20 years recruiting. You must have this down to a science. What is it that you wish people understood about recruiting and working with recruiters?

Marc: 03:35

Well, I wish people understood that a recruiter is not a magic bullet. You can’t have someone take away that job hunt, which I know is nauseating, uncomfortable, difficult. What other word can we throw at it? Emotional. It’s just not a fun experience, but unfortunately, the average person hunts for jobs 17 times in their lifetime. Bummer. You’re going to have to learn how to get good at job hunting. If you want to manage your career, you’ve got to learn how to do the job hunting, which is really the reverse of networking. People are either job hunting or networking—they never stop doing one or the other. That’s what I teach people to do so that when they have to jump on those 17 times, and if you’re in the game industry, it’s probably going to be 32 times, you know what I’m saying?

Jordan: 04:24

Yeah, I mean, having done quite a few of these interviews, that's something I hear a lot. “I was here for two years, I was here for a year, then I was here for six months.” And then, usually, at some point, people sort of find a home if they're lucky, but not everyone does.

Marc: 04:39

No, that's true. It can be quite frustrating in our industry because we're high tech, and high tech is unstable. That creates a problem. There's also a different mentality between East Coast employers, West Coast employers, and employers in Europe and Asia. It’s just different mentalities, and once you understand that, it helps level out your career.

For example, the West Coast—not just California, but the whole West Coast—has had a model for the last 10 years: start a company, staff the company, sell the company. I don't know where the profit is in this, but okay, who cares about making profits? Just start a company, staff it, and offload it to somebody else. And that’s been very successful, but unfortunately, that's why people have jobs for three months, six months, one year. You're just treated like a dime a dozen. Who cares? There's no commitment to the employee.

On the other hand, there are companies on the East Coast, and if all business in America operated this way, wow, America would be in a lot of trouble. But there are companies on the East Coast—

Jordan: 05:50

Someone's got to buy the companies.

Marc: 05:51

Yeah, right. But there are companies on the East Coast, the Midwest, and actually a few on the West Coast, where they actually invest in their employees. It’s a commitment—whether it's a five-year commitment or a lifetime commitment—and therefore, the whole interview process is different.

Sometimes when I have a West Coast person wanting to go East Coast, I actually have to give them therapy because they don’t believe the company is really investing in them. It’s kind of funny.

Jordan: 06:23

Yeah, I've been at companies where I felt really supported, and I've been at companies where I felt like I was being judged every quarter.

Marc: 06:31

Right, exactly. That’s not a fun environment to be in, and it’s something you want to consider when job hunting. I just wish people understood that there are two types of recruiters out there. Most of the recruiters they're dealing with are contingency recruiters. Their relationship is contingent—meaning Electronic Arts, Ubisoft, or whoever goes to five contingency recruiters at the same time and says, "Hey, I need an art director." The first one that gets them the art director wins.

Well, I don't know about you, but that sounds like a cluster to me. And guess what? It is a cluster. Those five recruiting firms, they don’t know anything about the game industry. They don’t have a relationship with the company. They're just talking to an email address in HR. So, no relationship at all. They’ll get your resume, submit it, and hope it sticks to the wall. Stay away from those contingency recruiters, for God's sake. That is horrible.

Jordan: 07:28

I just want to say that Marc is pacing around his office right now, and it's kind of fun to watch. From a content standpoint, let me just add that I think there are also companies whose own hiring manager process works this way. And that is also something to account for.

Marc: 07:43

You know, I might talk about the internal recruiters that actually work for EA, Ubisoft, Sega, Sony. That's a different story—that’s the company coming to you. But a third-party recruiter who's on contingency? I'm sorry, Bob. They're going to take your one resume and blast it out to everyone. Thousands of game companies, Asia, whoever—who cares if you’ll move to Asia? They don’t even ask you. They’re going to send that generic resume out everywhere.

So, what they've done is gotten you blackballed and rejected from the industry because now there’s a $20,000 fee on your head, and no one wants to pay it. And frankly, do you think a generic resume sent to everybody is a good idea? That’s like playing the lottery. That is not how you job hunt. You need to customize your approach to every company you approach. Otherwise, stop playing around and go work at McDonald’s.

Jordan: 08:28

So, what you’re saying—and I didn’t realize this—is that some recruiters will send your resume out, and as soon as it’s in the hands of the hiring managers, you’re basically blocked from going to those hiring managers yourself without them having to pay this additional fee.

Marc: 08:42

Correct. You are owned by that recruiter for 12 months. That’s why you’ve got to be careful who you give your resume to. You have to interview the recruiter on the phone. If they can’t name names in the industry, if they can’t talk the talk, that’s how they’re going to represent you. If they even speak to somebody... See, I’m a retained recruiter. I am paid by my clients before I ever pick up the phone. Why do they pay me? Because I’m a game programmer. I know the Unreal Engine. I’ve touched Unity. I can program. I’ve done game design. I’ve done marketing. Guess what? I understand the jobs I’m recruiting for. I’m not just matching buzzwords.

There is no way I’m going to submit someone who is marginal to one of my clients. When I’m working on a search, everyone in the industry knows that, so I’m retained. Of course, you’re going to trust someone who is worth being paid to do the search. If those five to ten recruiters hired to fill an art director position were worth a relationship with the company, they’d actually have one.

Jordan: 09:42

Right, right.

Marc: 09:43

So I'm talking to the hiring managers, I'm talking to HR, I'm talking to the board of directors. It's a live, real conversation. I can actually prepare someone for the interview because guess what? I helped them design the interview. It's like, hello!

Jordan: 09:58

Yeah, I wasn't aware that this was something I should be tuned into if I was being contacted by a recruiter. What are the questions I should ask? Are you a retained or contingent recruiter?

Marc: 10:11

Absolutely. That's the first question: Are you retained or contingent? And they should be able to answer that question. The second question is, who are your clients? You know what? I have no problem telling you. When I call to recruit, I say, "Hi, I'm recruiting for SEGA. I'm on retainer. If you send your resume to SEGA, they’re going to send it to me for that job anyway because I'm on retainer."

So when that recruiter doesn’t want to tell you the company name, that already tells you: contingency, contingency—no, stay away. And again, if they can’t talk the talk, can’t talk the industry, can’t talk about the games you’ve worked on, or the games someone else has worked on... They call you on the phone, "Hi, are you a game designer?" And you’re like, "No, I’m a programmer at TARD." You know what I’m saying? No, stay away from these people. They’re not even repping you. They’re just hoping the company will hire you by mistake. And yeah, people win the lottery. But that’s not how you job hunt.

Jordan: 11:02

Okay, that’s great. Something else I want to ask you about is career management. Dealing with a recruiter happens from time to time, but since you’ve been working with people for 20 years, what have you seen in terms of helping people manage their careers long term?

Marc: 11:22

Well, you’ve got to strategize. I know it’s not easy to do, and we’ve all said it, but it's kind of like a New Year’s resolution. You’ve got to sit down and figure out, "What do you want to be when you grow up?" If it’s becoming a vice president, or a CEO, or running your own company, it doesn’t just happen by magic. You’ve got to plan that out.

Look at the experience base you have today and say, "Okay, I want to be VP. I know I’ve got to have this kind of skill set, and I’ve got to develop myself up to that." So, that’s how you build your five-year plan, your ten-year plan. It doesn’t just happen. The other day, some of the younger folks... They just think they’re going to be vice president after five days of working. One of my clients called me up because they were like, "Oh my God, Marc, I just hired this associate producer, and he asked me if he was being fast-tracked for VP." The hiring manager didn’t even know what to say. You know what I mean? It was like, "What have you done yet in the job?"

Jordan: 12:21

He had been hired, though.

Marc: 12:22

Yeah, yeah. So, that was about that. But we were all kind of laughing about it, like, "Okay, do something as an associate producer first before we talk about executive producer." So, what was the question? I always want to make sure—I sometimes drift.

Jordan: 12:38

We were talking about career management, longer-term strategy. You mentioned a five-year plan, ten-year plan—what do those plans look like?

Marc: 12:47

Well, it's like, break it down. If you want to be a vice president of development, obviously, you’ve got to start off in some sort of production role. Move yourself up to a senior-level management role. You’ve just got to keep making sure that you're progressing in the company the right way so that, when someone looks at your background, you have the foundation to be a vice president. And that’s what people need to think about and focus on. It’s not rocket science. It’s pretty simple to figure that out. Just keep your eye on the ball every time you're making a job change.

And folks get excited and emotional during a job change. They also don’t run their job search. A lot of people just answer job ads, and I'm always scratching my head, going, "Really? You think that's job hunting? If that’s what you think job hunting is, go back to school or go learn how to job hunt because that is not job hunting." Only 10%of the jobs are ever advertised. Really? You're going to swim in 10%of the jobs? Great.

Jordan: 13:46

That is a red ocean. So, how do we job hunt? That’s fantastic. Let’s talk about that. What is job hunting if it’s not answering those ads?

Marc: 13:57

Job hunting is really doing my job. It’s being a mini recruiter. You’re on the phone every day, talking to people. Yes, you're sending out a resume, but in this day and age, if someone looks at your resume, they're certainly going to get onto Google or a search engine and look you up online. So, you’ve really got to make sure that your internet life is in order.

Marc: 14:20

So what do I mean? Your LinkedIn page must be filled out appropriately, with a business-appropriate photo. Showing a comic strip or any other kind of image—I'm really glad to see your art in one snapshot, but no, that’s not what the LinkedIn platform is about. It's a business-to-business connection platform.

Your LinkedIn profile needs to be filled out correctly because if it’s not, it indicates you're lazy. So, immediately, we’re making hiring decisions based on your LinkedIn profile. Figure out how to update that profile.

Next thing to do is Facebook. You’ve got to lock down Facebook. If I don’t know who you are, and I can get on your Facebook page and see pictures of you smoking and drinking... No, no, no. I understand marijuana is being legalized across the country, but it’s still illegal federally. And guess what? You’re not going to be hired in the video game industry. I don’t care how cool you think it is. I’ve seen many people lose a job based on photographs on Facebook.

I had once—oh my God—it was a goodbye party at her old company. She took a new job, and they were just about to make her an offer. HR jumps on her Facebook page, and they see her with all these guys. It was her goodbye party at a game company, so of course, there were only guys, but it didn’t translate well. What did translate was something negative, and she did not get the job offer. So, really, you’ve got to lock that Facebook page down. If you don’t know how to do it, go to YouTube—“How do I lock down my Facebook page?” Your friends should be able to see your stuff, but if I’m not your friend, I should only see what you want me to see: one or two professional pictures.

And of course, on Facebook, fill out your information like you did on LinkedIn. Don’t leave it incomplete. Incomplete information communicates that you are incomplete in your work. Why would I hire you when there are other people to talk to?

Marc: 16:06

So, LinkedIn and Facebook—you want to do that. You also want to do a vanity search on your name using Google and another search engine besides Google. Look at the first page of hits. Most people don’t have more than one page. You want to make sure there’s nothing there that you don’t like. If there is, figure out how to remove it from the website so those hits don’t show up anymore.

It’s about cleaning up your internet life, because we’re going to jump on the internet immediately to research who the heck you are, despite the resume or LinkedIn profile you send me. We’re still going to do some internet research.

Marc: 16:42

So people need to realize that cleaning up their online presence is important. The second thing is, you’ve got to customize your resume and approach for every company. I'm sorry, artists—EA Sports does not want to see your sci-fi images. It's EA Sports. So, don't approach them unless you can or want to do sports images. It’s very simple. A lot of people just don’t get that. "Oh, they’re going to hire me because I can do whatever."

Jordan: 17:10

And if that's all you've got, then at least acknowledge it somehow in your writing.

Marc: 17:13

Yes, exactly. You want to be focused on what companies to approach and what resume to give those companies. It’s okay if your resume is a bit customized for somebody, but when the dates don’t match up with LinkedIn, it creates a level of distrust before the conversation even starts. So you want to get rid of that distrust by locking down everything and making sure it’s the same story about you everywhere. You know what I mean? So that’s important.

Marc: 17:52

And then, of course, you want to tap into the unadvertised job market. That’s where you should job hunt. 85%of jobs are unadvertised, and you obtain them through networking. So, what do you do? LinkedIn is a great tool. If you’re an artist, you get on LinkedIn, and you join the largest groups possible. With a free account, you’re allowed to join 50 groups. So, start with those 50 groups. I’d chunk up 40 of them and keep 10 just in case.

Those 40 groups should be the largest animation groups, or whatever your area of expertise is. You don’t want to join small groups; you want the biggest ones. That will grow your LinkedIn profile tremendously in the areas you want to grow. When you start to advertise yourself and approach people in these groups about job hunting and networking, guess what? These are people who know about unadvertised jobs. So, it’s about starting that process. That’s how you tap into the unadvertised job market.

Marc: 18:57

Another thing to do is make a list of the top 10 companies you want to work for. I don’t care what job ad is out there—what companies do you want to work for? This is about you and your career. You’ll be way more dynamic in the interview if it’s a company you’re excited about. Then, research who works at that company. Use LinkedIn, use other resources like Gamasutra.

If you’re in the art department, find the art director. Find people on staff who write articles—they’re friendlies. LinkedIn with them. If you’re a programmer, figure out who the VP of Engineering is or who the technical director is. Link in with them, start a conversation, talk about stuff, become someone who’s known, not just a resume thrown over every once in a while. That’s what networking is about—intelligently networking inside your target company.

Jordan: 19:50

I want to talk about that a little, go a bit more in depth. So, you find someone on LinkedIn who works at the company you're interested in, and you message them. Would you just start a conversation about their art or ask a question about their work, or how would you do that?

Marc: 20:06

I always like to start off with the fact that people like to talk about themselves. We're all kind of self-motivated, so I like to play on that. When I'm introducing myself to someone, especially in a networking environment, I approach them like, "Hey, I loved your article on VR." And of course, it's authentic—I'm not lying. I really do like the article. That’s why I say, get on the internet and look for people writing articles, especially at your target companies, because those are the friendlies inside.

But I wouldn’t email the guy who wrote an article this month. I’d find articles from two or three months ago, because if they wrote it this month, they’re getting inundated with emails from a zillion different people. So find articles from two, three, four months ago from your target companies, and start approaching those folks. They’re most likely going to be friendlies.

Jordan: 20:50

That is a great tip—the older articles.

Marc: 20:52

Yeah, find them through the International Game Developers Association. If they’re members, you can engage in a conversation that way. You see their Facebook page, they ski? You like skiing. They’ve got a dog? You’ve got a dog. Figure out a way to start a conversation that’s not, "Hey, can I get a job?"

Jordan: 21:08

You heard their interview on the Playmakers podcast.

Marc: 21:14

Exactly. Then you're starting a dialogue. Every time you have new code, a new art image, or something new you’ve done, you send out a little note: "Hey guys, here's a link to my demo. Check out my new thing." Who cares if they follow the link or not? What happens is, in the art meeting, or the programmer meeting, when the VP says, "Hey, I need to hire a junior X or a mid-level Y," that person is going to come to mind. You’re going to bring up the person’s name in the meeting because you’ve been networking and talking to this company.

And bam—all of a sudden, you’re getting an email from the person saying, "Hey, the job hasn’t even been advertised. HR doesn’t even have the rec signed,” and they’re already talking to you. That’s called unadvertised jobs, and that’s how you start the process. So, it’s about being smart about figuring out your goal and how to get there.

Jordan: 22:01

And being consistent? I think there's something very powerful about contacting someone, and then contacting them again in three months, and again in three months, just keeping that channel open.

Marc: 22:12

Right. So the other trick is, learn to use a database. There’s no way as a human you can keep this all in your brain. And if you've heard me at the beginning, networking is the reverse of job hunting. So, you’re just not going to stop doing it. We don’t have the luxury of not doing that. So, you're either networking to meet people and keeping in touch with them, or you're networking to meet people who are going to hire you. But you're always doing this process.

Marc: 22:37

It’s a 24/7, 365 process. It’s all the time. And that's how you’re never stuck without a job. That’s how you’re never really job hunting or having to put a resume together. We all hear about these people who’ve worked for 20 years and never had a resume—well, they don’t need one because they have a network. Someone plucks them out of their current job when the time is right because they’re always networking. So, it’s important to learn how to network when you’re in that environment.

Jordan: 23:10

I mean, first of all, Marc, that was amazing.

Marc: 23:12

I’m a little passionate about the topic. I really love helping people out.

Jordan: 23:15

I can tell. It comes through.

Marc: 23:17

It makes me cry when someone has spent four, six years getting a programming degree or a specialty degree to get into the game industry, and then no one has taught them how to do that first job hunt, which is a nightmare—let alone the second or third, but the first one really sucks. I mean, right out of college, you have no experience. It is really tough. And they give up after three months and end up flipping hamburgers at McDonald’s. That makes me so sad because they’ve invested all this time to get that degree, to get the experience, to put together a demo, and they’re just failing at the job hunt. Come on, you know? But schools don’t teach this stuff, and I get it—it’s not fun.

Jordan: 23:52

Quick aside—what do you think? Are people hiring from those bootcamp-style programs that have become popular?

Marc: 23:57

Yeah, I mean, maybe for some entry-level jobs, sure. But really, it’s the more traditional schools. You know, Full Sail, Real World Education—what’s it called? Full Sail University now, excellent program. DigiPen, excellent program. Texas A&M, excellent program. You know, the real programs that have degrees. These two-year specialty colleges—it’s a foundation to start, but you better do some work to back up that degree.

Jordan: 24:26

Okay, that’s good to know. Guildhall—is the Guildhall program a good one?

Marc: 24:30

Yeah, Guildhall is excellent. That’s what I meant by Texas A&M or whatever. Guildhall—excellent program. You can find the top schools on Gamasutra’s list of two or three hundred schools on their website.

Jordan: 24:43

Our hero has found her job. She’s being offered a job. What are some things she should think about before taking the job that people might forget to do, especially if it’s one of their 10 dream companies?

Marc: 24:55

Well, if it’s your first job in the industry, just take it—who cares? Seriously, for the first job, you just need the experience. Stay as long as you can at that company. It’s the foundation of your career. If you can move around, great. But really, for that first job, just keep your mouth shut, take it, and make it work. You know what I mean?

It’s the jobs after that—the second, the third, the fourth job—that’s when you can start to control where you live in the country, what’s important to you in a company. But just not that first job. And maybe not even the second job, depending on how long you stayed at the first one. Until you're about three or four years into your career, you can't really start to manage it very well—you’re kind of at the whim of whatever comes your way, and what you can create.

Marc: 25:42

Sure. Then you can start to right the ship, around year three and on. That’s when you want to start considering the company’s personality and funding. How many candidates don’t look at the funding of a company? And I’m not just talking about, "Okay, this company raised 50 million dollars, great." Well, let’s quickly do the burn rate. You don’t need a PhD or to know a lot about math to figure out, "Okay, they’ve got 200 employees, the average salary is 60,000 dollars, which is low. They’ve got this building here. Okay, this company is going to survive for about three more months and then go out of business." So why would you join the company? It’s just logical.

I had a client a few years ago, and of course, they went out of business. I kept emailing the CEO. I started recruiting for them, and the numbers just didn’t make sense to me. So, I started emailing the executive staff: "Guys, I’m just a third party, but I think you’re going to run out of money in about eight months. I’m not staffing you." And no one could respond to me. So, of course, I stopped staffing them, and about a year later, 300 employees were on the street. It was just obvious. I walk from clients like that—I’m not going to take a client that’s going to put someone on the street ASAP. That’s ridiculous. I’m not here to cause headaches, you know what I mean?

Marc: 26:59

So, people need to research the company. They also need to research the culture. If it’s a "wham-bam" culture, like we typically find in startup entities in the Bay Area, hey, you might enjoy that when you’re young. I don’t enjoy that now, and most people don’t enjoy that when they’re trying to get married, have a family, put their kids through college, or retire. You know what I mean? So, that’s when you start looking at quality of life and where you live in the country—things like that. Unfortunately, you’ve got to wait a few years into your career before you can start to direct it that way.

Jordan: 27:33

Yeah.

Marc 27:3

And that’s something you want to consider. You want to consider the cost of living because, you know what? A hundred K in Madison, Wisconsin might sound like no money to you, but you’re living high on the hog in Madison. And you know what? That’s the Berkeley of the Midwest. So, while it doesn’t have the best reputation, maybe you check it out. You might never leave Madison, Wisconsin, you know what I mean? It’s just those kinds of decisions that people start to make when they’re a little bit older. And I think they’re great decisions, although I’m sure some of the younger folks are like, "What? I’m not moving to Madison."

Jordan 28:0

I think, this is already fantastic. There's so much information here. I think listeners may have to listen to this a couple of times to get everything you've said. Let's talk a little bit about the trends that are happening now. So, what are some of the things that have changed in the last one to two years in terms of hiring?

Marc: 28:19

What's changed, unfortunately, on the employer's side is that they can't get triple-A talent anymore because, what's happening is game industry talent is now wanted by every industry. I had a client that made bubblegum—what the heck do they need video game people for? But the Topps company, headquartered in New York City, yes, that 80-year-old company, set up an interactive division, and guess what? They hired a good hundred game industry folks. So, that's just an example of how any industry—

Jordan: 28:49

T.O.P.P.S.?

Marc: 28:50

T.O.P.P.S., yeah. They made the old bubblegum baseball cards when we were kids—or maybe you're too young.

Jordan: 28:58

I think, I think—what’s his name? The old head of Disney took them over.

Marc: 29:04

You know, Jeremy from EA was running it for a while. I don't know if you know him, but anyway, yeah, so everyone wants the talent now, which is a good thing for some of us. But also, hey, that gives traditional game companies some competition. We've got companies that still don’t get it and are offering these disgusting salaries, thinking talent is a dime a dozen. But then there are companies where their hiring process is 10 days. They identify you, and they make a yes or no decision in 10 days. And I’m telling you, that’s companies like Google, Microsoft, EA, Ubisoft—they’re making offers within 10 days. So is Activision.

Marc: 29:49

That’s what’s happening these days. And the other folks who are just dragging along—we’re in a crisis right now in the industry. There's not enough American talent to fill the needs of the game industry, let alone anyone who needs digital talent. Think about it—even PR agencies are now creating virtual reality and augmented reality assets. They need artists from the game industry. So you see what I mean? The talent pool is being pulled everywhere. So, we can no longer, in the game industry, get away with underpaying. We can't get away—

Jordan: 30:19

Overworking.

Marc: 30:20

Overworking. And we've got to make a hiring decision within 10 days. We can't just flop around anymore like we've done in the past. Some companies get it, and some companies don't.

Jordan: 30:30

All right. That actually sounds very positive to me because I think it's that pressure that will make companies change and make the industry change. One of the things that, and you may know the stats on this, but something that's always bothered me is, I believe about 50%of the people who break into the game industry leave within five years.

Marc: 30:45

Yeah, that's it. There definitely is a high percentage. I just don't know the number. Yeah. At this point.

Jordan: 30:50

It's something high. I've heard that bandied about, but it's something high. And I think it's a shame because I think it means the games aren't as good, you know? I think it means our impact culturally isn't as high. And I think this is all part of it. So, hopefully we're on a path to better games and a bigger impact in the world.

Marc: 31:08

And, companies need to get more aggressive. Like, I'm finding too that, I had a company come to me for a very special job. And frankly, everyone in the country, in the world, wants this position. It's the hardest position to fill. So, and they're in bum. Nowhere, I mean, oh my god, big deal. You've got one or two games. You know what I’m saying? And they want to hire triple-A talent. Bull. I show them this guy who's been working at EA for 10 years—do you think EA is paying this guy for 10 years because the person sucks at their job? This company would not look at the person without a demo. And I'm just like, wake up. It is 2017. We do not have this time. EA is not employing this person for all these years for no reason. I mean, come on, where's the sense? I get it if it's an entry-level person, but someone with 10 plus years of experience—seriously, you're going to give them a programming test? You're going to insult them with an art test? Seriously. And so that kind of baby stuff has got to go, but that's all there because the people in the human resource department are not from the game industry. They barely know how to use their computers, and they're not playing video games. So of course, if it's not exactly written on the resume the right way, they have no clue.

Marc: 32:18

You know what I mean? So, and that's another problem that we see in the industry—game companies, because other companies do invest in quality HR folks. Game companies? They'll hire someone who was an assistant recruiter for two months at a game company, and all of a sudden now they're running HR at another game company. No background, no qualifications, hardly know what they're doing, certainly don't know what an artist does, certainly have never seen Maya on the screen. I mean, I don't get it. You know what I mean? You are the quality of the people you can retain and hire. A people make A games, C people make C games. Quite simple. So why would companies allow an 18-year-old to run their human resource department? Clueless. And those are the companies I stay away from, and you should too.

Jordan: 33:04

Right. I mean, I think that would potentially be challenging for a lot of people going to meet with that recruit, with that person. But that's sort of like what I was saying earlier, you were talking about, you know, what kinds of recruiters to look out for. And I was saying there are also hiring managers that I think people need to be looking out for as well.

Marc: 33:21

Yeah. The other frustration I get too is, you know, hiring managers and companies, they do not know how to interview. Most people have not taken a class on interviewing. They've not even opened a book. So they try to go by what feels good. Really? What feels good? Well, I don't know about you, but I'm not dumb. I'm going to show up in an interview and my "Mark Mencher interview show" is going to be two hours perfectly crafted. Of course, you're going to hire me. You might not like me, but I'm a smart interview person. I'm going to put on a good show. It's not about a feeling. It's not about, you know, it's really about learning how to do behavioral interview techniques and getting into, you know, can this person perform the job? So I get so frustrated that people just do not know how to evaluate skills. You know, what are you going to do?

Jordan: 34:08

Well, that gets back to the HR department as well, because, you know, if someone's got to train the teams to bring the right people on.

Marc: 34:15

Correct. But again, when you've got someone who's not qualified running HR, running around, trying to just figure out how to establish it, the last thing they can do is proactively train their management staff. I mean, come on, what's going to happen?

Jordan: 34:30

Well, that's what we've got you for, Mark. So give us some tips for hiring managers or for other leads who are playing a part in the process.

Marc: 34:38

It's called behavioral interview techniques. You can throw it into Google and bam, up comes a ton of articles about it. It's really just a technique of asking questions and digging deeper and deeper and deeper into a project or an experience that the employee had, because in that, they reveal to you who they are, how they are, how they showed up, their attitude. It's really hard to fake it when you start to drill into an example that someone gives you. So, behavioral interviewing style teaches you how to do that, and it's quite effective. So that’s what I encourage folks to learn how to do.

Jordan: 35:14

That's fantastic. I wanted to ask you a little bit about what seems like a rise in contract workers and also in kind of, putting together bespoke teams on a project-to-project basis. How are you seeing that increase and what are your thoughts on it?

Marc: 35:28

We talk about this a lot. We've talked about this a lot in the industry for the last 20 years, and we've all expected it to increase sort of like it has happened in the film industry. But, contract work's going on obviously, but it's really not increased to the way we all projected. And I think part of that is because we're working on a confidential game. We don't want people to know what that game is until we're ready to release it. So really, am I going to hire contractors that I don’t really have control over all across the world, and I'm expecting them to keep their pie holes shut? So, I think that's really why contracting has not been the best.

Marc: 36:04

The other problem is Asian cultural differences. You know, you make any game for the Western market, your contract out to artists in Asia, really, they've got Asian sensibilities, nothing wrong with it, it just doesn’t play in the Western market. Bomb of a game. You know what I mean? So that's why contracting just doesn’t exactly work out, yeah. And it's been slow. It's not what I thought it would be, 20 years into recruiting in this industry.

Jordan: 36:30

Anything else that you want our listeners to know about or where they can reach you?

Marc: 36:35

You know, they can always reach me at marc@gamerecruiter.com. I will respond to emails, but as you can imagine, my inbox is a little bit uncontrollable, so sometimes it does take a good week. But I always respond, so I do apologize for that. But yeah, I'm happy to answer questions for folks, put them on the right path if they get stuck on something.

But normally, when I'm recruiting for the jobs that I'm working on, I'm like an extension of the company's HR department, and I'm working on their emergency searches, or I'm working on searches that they don't want the industry to know about. So like an EA, I always pick on EA, I’m sorry, one of the big companies, they need a new director of technology. Do you think they want their board or their stockholders to know that? Do you think they want their competitors to know that their tech director’s out the door? No. So that's when they come to someone like me. So I get it done and replaced on the QT.

Marc: 37:31

So if you don't see jobs posted on my board, that's probably because I just can't talk about them. Email me anyway. Let me know you exist. I'll reach out to you when I have a job that fits in the world, in the realm of someone's reality, you know?

Jordan: 37:44

Yeah. Okay. Great. Well, the amount of information we have stuffed into the last 35 or so minutes is amazing. So I really appreciate your time, Marc.

Marc: 37:52

No problem. It was a lot of fun and I hope your audience enjoyed it.

Jordan: 37:55

Me too. Talk soon.

Marc: 37:56

Take care.

Jordan: 37:58

Boom. That was the interview with Marc Mencher. That is episode 15 of Playmakers in the can, which is amazing to think that we've already done that many episodes. Thank you so much for being a part of this, for listening, for subscribing, for writing reviews. It means a lot. It really does help keep the show going, and I want to keep it going a long time. So, please be a part of that and write us a review. It means so much to me, and if you want to reach out to me personally, you can do so at jordan@brightblack.co. Send me an email, let me know who you'd like on the show, what topics you want covered, what struggles you're having in your work, in your career, in your project, and I'm here to help bring on the guests who get it done for you.

So that's it for this week's episode. Thanks again to Marc, who is amazing. Like I mentioned, I think it would be great to talk to him, focus on the studio side as well in a future interview. I will have to ask him about that, but in the meantime, have a great week and I will see you on the next episode of Playmakers.