How to Become (or work with) a AAA Game Composer, with Michael Bross

Jordan: 00:00

What is going on? It is Jordan Blackman and you are listening to PlayMaker's podcast. It's the podcast by and for game industry professionals where you learn some really cool stuff. And this episode is no different. I am very excited that we have on Michael Bross. Let me pull up the notes here. Michael and I go back, but here's the thing.

Jordan: 00:23

This guy has done composition for Ratchet & Clank, Counter Strike, Oddworld, Arena of Valor, Lord of the Fallen, Simpsons, Tapped Out, XCOM 2, Edge of Nowhere, World of Tanks, and more. Now if that intro felt a little unpracticed, maybe it didn't, maybe it felt good, it actually felt fine to me when I was doing it, but if it didn't feel just the way it's supposed to feel, that's because I haven't done this in a while.

It's been like two years since we've recorded an episode of PlayMakers, which is awkward. I'm excited to be bringing you a new episode. What I call the lost episodes of Playmaker. So these are interviews that I conducted quite a while ago, sometime, you know, in that two year period that just never got finished.

And it's a blight on my record and it's not a good thing, but it happened. And we are going to get these into the hands of the public so that you can enjoy it. You know, what's been amazing with Playmakers is even though I haven't published an episode for a long time, the show was originally designed for the end to be evergreen. You know, we don't talk about stuff that's in this week's news. We talk about things that are not going to change that much. I mean, things do change, of course, in the game industry. We talk about principles. We talk about strategies. We talk about how people approach their work. These are things that last for a while.

So what we've seen is that people keep downloading the episodes very consistently. So we just need more. And that is what this is all about. So I'm very, very excited to bring you this first of our lost episode series with Michael Bross. Michael is someone who I've had the pleasure to work with before.

He's an amazing composer and sound designer. Like I mentioned at the top, he's worked on Ratchet & Clank, and Counter Strike, and Oddworld, and XCOM 2, and also World of Tanks, which I don't even think I got to, Simpsons Tapped Out, Lords of the Fallen, Arena of Valor, you get the idea. But, you know, beyond his amazing resume, What we talk about in this episode is how he got started in the industry, because I think there's a lot of folks who would love to do what he does.

So we get into how you might break in and we talk about how he broke in, but we also talk about what he looks for when hiring, when bringing new people in to work under him. We talk about when in the process to start thinking about audio. It's something that I think often gets thought about way too late.

So we talk about that and he brings up this very interesting idea that we end up calling concept composition. So instead of concept art, it's conceptual music that you create early in the project and the value of that and where that fits in is something we get into when he talks about. How to give good direction to a composer.

So if you're not a composer, but you maybe are a AD or a CD or a producer and you want to, you know, work better with your composer, with your audio director we get into some of the best ways to do that. We talked about how LiveOps have changed things in the audio world. And we also talk about VR Michael worked on Edge of Nowhere. Another amazing title that I didn't even mention. So, a lot of amazing stuff. I am using the word amazing too much because I haven't done this in a little while but nonetheless, this is a great lost episode with Michael Bross. Let's do this.

Michael, thanks for coming on the show. Great to have you here.

Michael: 03:43

And thank you for having me on the show.

Jordan: 03:46

So, you know, the reason that I really wanted to talk to you on the show is I think, you know, for me, a big goal of this show is to have a podcast that's useful to people who are active and practicing and actually making games day to day. So we're going to do that.

We're going to talk about how people can create better audio experiences for their games and what it's like to make audio for VR and for live operations. But also I think, you know, I know so many people who want your life, who want to do what you do. And who dream of making music for Ratchet & Clank and Counter Strike and Oddworld and, and the things that you've done. You know, we also have to talk a little bit about how does one get to be Michael Bross.

Michael: 04:28

So I started kind of in a different age, really, than what we see now. It's a lot different now than what it was when I started. You know, I've been working in the game industry for over 20 years, and a lot has really changed since then.

Back when I started, it was a much smaller industry, and much more niche. A company could sell, you know, 50, 000 units and that's doing pretty well. Right? So, it was a lot different than there were a lot less people. I mean, it was still competitive to get in, but I think today the bar is definitely a lot higher and there's a lot more expected and I think part of that has to do with the fact that the technology itself has changed and it's a lot easier to create audio quality now how cheap the tools are as opposed to back then.

Jordan: 05:14

Okay. But take me back. It's 20 years ago.

Michael: 05:17

You know, I got hired by a very small company called Paragon Software. And as soon as I was hired, they were acquired by another company called Microprose, which doesn't exist anymore.

Jordan: 05:27

I remember Microprose though. They did all the simulator games.

Michael: 05:30

Yeah. More military based stuff and Sims. We're also doing some adventure style games too. So they were kind of doing a number of things. So that's how I got started.

Jordan: 05:42

Now, how did you get that gig at Paragon? Like, what do you think set you apart?

Michael: 05:46

I think back then they were looking for a composer and to be honest with you, I hadn't really even thought about games at the time I was thinking about a lot of other things, you know, working as a songwriter and not really thinking about working on video game soundtrack.

So I saw this ad and I was intrigued. And so I responded to it. I didn't hear anything for probably a month or so. And then they contacted me and then I went through this interview process with them, which I think lasted about two or three months. At the end, you know, they decided to hire me. I know there were probably, back then, there were probably about 150 people that applied for it. And, I was fortunate enough to land the gig. So that was great.

Jordan: 06:26

And you've been on the other end of that. I mean, at Somatone, you must be looking to hire people and have to choose from an enormous number of candidates. How do you make those decisions? What are you looking for?

Michael: 06:37

Sure. It really depends on the level that I'm hiring at. Obviously mid and senior level people would be looking for, you know, definitely have experience, have talent, can almost be, you know, self driven and have a great understanding of game development. And especially how game audio fits in the development process. So that's really important.

You know, sound designers who work in other areas like film or TV and they haven't done work in game audio and they don't really play too many games. It's kind of hard to grasp it because it's a totally different process than what you would see in film or TV. That's for mid to senior level. I think for somebody who's just getting into the industry. I'm definitely looking for somebody who wants to work in game audio and has shown some type of motivation.

I'm not necessarily looking for somebody with a degree, but someone who has a lot of potential, who has a great reel for their level, and somebody who's kind of shown some type of initiative as far as doing something, whether it's working on a game with a group of people who aren't making money or who are just starting out.

Jordan: 07:47

Like a mod or something like that?

Michael: 07:48

Yeah, yeah, something like that. That definitely catches my interest when I get resumes.

Jordan: 07:53

You know, when you were talking about how making audio for games is different than for film or TV, and you ask about that in an interview, I'll tell you, the rest of development never gets asked about that in their interviews.

Audio is often the last thing that people are thinking about in the development process, unless, of course, they're doing the audio. So, how do you cope with that?

Michael: 08:14

Yeah, I think it depends on the project. I've worked on a ton of projects and I find that some developers or some teams, some creative directors really think about it from the start and are open to ideas and really want to push the envelope, not just in design or engineering but in audio too. So that's really great working with people like that.

As you know I work on Oddworlds projects and I work with Lorne Lanning and he highly values audio and he really wants to start early with audio. So that's refreshing. Most people are pretty good to work with, but on occasional I'll come across a producer who just doesn't really care about audio at all.

So I think instances like that, it's just really having to push and be visible in the development process and really be active and pushing excellence.

Jordan: 09:06

When would you want to have those conversations? When would you want them to start thinking about the compositions for their games?

Michael: 09:12

Once the dev team has an idea of what they're doing and are moving forward, then I think that's a good time to jump in.

And that's pretty early in development. I've worked in the prototyping stage and that's a pretty cool phase to work into because, you know, sometimes the work I do gives people ideas what they're working on in terms of approach, you know, from animators to designers.

Jordan:: 09:36

Like, "Oh, I like the way that sounds, maybe we can make it look like this to kind of match that. This is the kind of character that would make, that goes with this kind of score," that kind of thing?

Michael: 09:46

Yeah, I mean, I think sometimes it's hard to express the tone that you want to create. And I think with music, or audio design, you're able to capture that.

I mean, really music and sound design is really about creating something that you can't capture with words.

Jordan: 10:01

Right. It's funny because people are obviously, you know, often do concept art. You don't often hear about concept composition.

Michael: 10:08

That's true. But I've been actually doing concept composition in my projects. It really helps. Helps my process and I think it in certain ways it helps the developers.

Jordan: 10:20

I totally think it would help developers because music is one of those things that gives an overall feeling. You know, it's like when people talk about doing the box art before you make the game so that you kind of, the team, can come together around the vision.

Michael: 10:33

Yes.

Jordan: 10:33

I think a musical composition could be another great way to do that.

Michael: 10:37

Yeah, absolutely. I totally agree.

Jordan: 10:40

I'm curious what it's like working on something like the Ratchet & Clank series, where they seem to take a very cinematic approach to the compositions. How does that change the process for you? Is it more like working on a movie? Or is it still similar to the traditional kind of game process?

Michael: 10:57

I think a lot of the games where I'm creating composition are directing audio, I think they tend to be a little more cinematic in sense than a lot of other games. You know, with Insomniac and with Oddworld, and I just completed this Edge of Nowhere project, which is also by Insomniac.

So there's definitely that feeling as part of those games. I guess I don't really think about it from a music perspective though, or from an audio perspective. I'm just approaching it as if It's not something I think about, you know, whether the game is more cinematic or not, and whether the music should be more cinematic.

Maybe it comes across that way more because there are, with an example Ratchet & Clank, you have a lot more cutscenes that are part of the story experience for the game, so maybe it comes across more that way, and I guess in that way, you know, I am scoring actual cutscenes, like a film, and it comes off that way, but really, the music for the cutscenes and the music for the gameplay, I think they're equivalent in terms of epic feel or that cinematic feel.

Jordan: 12:01

And when you're composing it, is it kind of the same process? Like you have this moment, whether it's a gameplay moment, a cut scene moment, it's still an emotional moment. And you're just trying to find the right composition for that?

Michael: 12:12

Yeah, I think some, some people are, they're not always sure how to give direction. They are worried that they have to be able to speak the music language that a composer would speak. But I actually prefer that they don't, I prefer the simple type of communication in terms of what are they trying to convey. I always ask for emotional keywords for a scenario and that helps create a much more accurate or targeted composition.

Jordan: 12:41

Right, because if they're telling you specifically, "Oh, we need timpani drums," then, you know, they're getting a little up in the business rather than the emotion that they want, and then you can bring that out.

Michael: 12:51

Yeah. I think when, you know, when you say timpani drums, you take timpani drums a million different directions emotionally, right? You could have some like quiet tense moments with it. You could have bombastic. And so what really is the emotion we're trying to convey? That's really the more important thing.

Jordan: 13:06

So what have been some of your single favorite project? And what made it so great?

Michael: 13:12

It's high on my list its Oddworld Stranger's Wrath. I got to do some pretty innovative things musically, and from an audio perspective as the audio director, and things that were pretty rewarding.

Jordan: 13:25

It had such a cool style, that kind of tripped out western thing.

Michael: 13:28

Yeah, it was a bit of a spaghetti western vibe, and it also had electronic elements, and it also had ethnic elements and orchestral elements. I think sometimes I hear compositions and I'll hear a composer who might be blending something, but, and it feels like, "Oh yeah, that's that, and that's this style." But what I was really looking to do with that stuff was to really create something where you didn't say, "Oh, that's electronic music or that's spaghetti Western style."It was more like I was trying to create something that was its own thing.

Jordan: 14:03

So, okay, to wrap up with a few questions about changes in the industry. So for example, how have like the free to play games and, you know, the focus now on live operations and downloadable content and ongoing content, how has that changed either the art or the business, you know, in audio?

Michael: 14:22

I think it's changed in the same way for audio that it's changed for pretty much every other discipline because you're dealing with the live operations. And well, what used to happen, right, was a team would create a game and they would refine it and refine it until they finished it. They finalized it and then they'd ship it out the door and then you were done with it and you didn't really touch it again. And now because teams are trying to get to the marketplace much quicker and create products that I guess they hope are more in line with their users interests. They will tend to push out games that, you might not think of as always being totally finished, right? I mean, definitely refined, but not totally finished. So, what that means from an audio perspective, really any other perspective is, or any other discipline is, you're sometimes putting stuff out the door that, you know, I might not be totally happy with.

You know, that's probably one of the main things. And then from there, you're basically working on a game as it continues to be live and you're continuing to develop it. So, it's really the players get to see a game develop and refine and transform over time as they're playing it.

Jordan: 15:40

And do you find that you're able to, you get the opportunity to actually go back and make those iterative improvements?

Michael: 15:47

Sometimes, yeah. It's funny because I was talking to one of the sound designers who work at Blizzard, and they were telling me when they worked on World of Warcraft, they shipped and some of the sounds they had viewed as temp, and they were planning on coming back to that material later when they had time.

So after a few months, when things weren't so crazy, they went back and they refined some of these sounds, and you know, they got rid of sounds that they thought were pretty terrible. The interesting thing was that the players had gotten so used to it. Yeah. There's kind of an uproar about some of the sounds being changed. I find that to be pretty interesting.

Jordan: 16:26

Right. Cause once it goes out there, it's not totally ours anymore. Its the audiences' as well.

Michael: 16:32

Yeah, exactly.

Jordan: 16:33

Kind of to close out, I want to touch base with you a little bit on how VR is impacting the audio process. You worked on Edge of Nowhere for Oculus, and I was curious what it was like making audio content for that platform, and how that changes things, if at all.

Michael: 16:49

A couple things. You know, that was my first VR title. And I worked on that over a seven month period. I wrote a ton of music in a very short amount of time, and I actually think it came out really well and that was released back in June. So, not too long ago, just a little over a month ago. And so that was my first VR title. And then in that time, I've also been working directly with Oculus. Edge of Nowhere was published by Oculus, it was developed by Insomniac. So I wasn't really working with Oculus directly but I am now working on some projects directly with Oculus and, working with audio people there too. Tom Smerdon is the audio director there, and it's pretty interesting.

And it's really great, but I feel like I'm learning a lot of new things because VR is a little like the wild west and we're all trying to figure out the rules, not just audio, but design and engineering. Yeah, everything. So, we're sometimes making it up as we go along and there's a lot of experimentation.

So yeah, it's actually a really exciting time. I like to work in situations where we might not have all the answers. And to me that's really part of the fun.

Jordan: 18:06

I think the game industry attracts those kinds of people because it is so fast moving and, you know, we're here to do something new.

Michael: 18:15

Yeah.

Jordan: 18:16

And we keep getting the chance, thankfully.

Michael: 18:18

Yeah. Exactly. And really it has a lot to do with just technology as the base of all this, because technology is changing all the time.

Jordan: 18:28

So Michael, where can people find you if they want to get in touch, if they're interested in working with you or learning more, how can they reach out to you?

Michael: 18:35

Oh, sure. Just go to my website at Bross.com. B R O S S. com.

Jordan: 18:40

Bross.com. I mean, I've told you this before, but that's amazing.

Michael: 18:45

I know. I think I've had that domain forever. I want to say, I think I got it back in 1997. Something like that. I forget.

Jordan: 18:53

You should get that thing appraised.

Michael: 18:56

I've had people approach, I've had companies approach me that have wanted to buy it.

Jordan: 19:00

Of course.

Michael: 19:01

Yeah.

Jordan: 19:02

Alright Michael, well this was great, I appreciate the time. I didn't mention this before, but Michael and I, we worked on some games together back in the day, so we actually go way back.

Michael: 19:10

We do.

Jordan: 19:11

I'm looking forward to grabbing a drink with you sometime soon, either in the bay or down here.

Michael: 19:16

Absolutely. Let's do it.

Jordan: 19:17

All right. Catch you later.

Michael: 19:19

Thanks, Jordan.

Jordan: 19:21

Well, there it was the first lost episode of PlayMakers. I hope you liked it. Honestly, I'm not sure which episode is going to come next. We have some really good things kind of in the hopper going through those old files. But because these episodes are lost, you know, I don't know exactly what is going to be on the docket for the next episode, but it is going to be good.

[: 00:19:40

You should stay tuned. You're going to want to subscribe if you haven't subscribed and, you know, look like I'm excited. I'm excited to be making these again. I'm excited to be sharing this with you. I would love to hear from you and learn what you want to have topic wise on the show. Did I mention I haven't done this in a little while?

But you know, it feels good. It actually feels amazing. So yeah, hit me up. You can just drop me an email jordan@brightblack.co and let me know which episodes you've liked, which ones maybe you haven't liked so much or what you'd like to see that you feel like is missing. That helps me make better content.

[: 00:20:16

Another way you can do it is by leaving reviews. Nothing makes me happier than seeing a new review on iTunes for the PlayMakers Podcast. And if you want to find more episodes, if you want to get it on the discussion, if you want to see the show notes that we do for every single episode with all the links and all the major topics we talked about, if you want to see pictures of the guests, if you want to link to their stuff, it's all at PlayMakerspodcast.com. I will see you in the next lost episode of PlayMakers.