Episode 18

From Table Tops to Live Ops, with Bruce Harlick

Bruce Has Much to Share In This Episode

  • How much content do you need to launch?
  • How to make a game that doesn't create an impossible content treadmill for your team
  • Why live ops allows as much, or more creativity as making new games
  • The importance of designing effective content tools
  • How to effectively use production resource on a live product
  • The negative impact of tech debt and procedural debt
  • How to balance between retention and revenue
  • Why live ops forces  teams to constantly reinvent the game and bring in new ideas
  •  How to put together a quarterly calendar of content releases in a way that balances the key KPI
  • How to balance out risky new features with reliable features
  • How to adjust a release plan based on the feedback and metrics from users
  • How to design for your game's audience
  • How to work with your community to create content your users will love
  • The importance of passion and empathy in game design

Connect with Bruce on Instagram: @amazingfoxbat

Transcript
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You are listening to Playmaker's Podcast, the podcast by

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and for game industry professionals.

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On every episode, I talk to a legend or

leader or both of the game industry and

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I dive deep with them into their areas

of expertise and experience to suss out

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information that you can use to do your

work in the game industry better and

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to give you a bigger perspective on the

industry as a whole so you can adapt

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and succeed in your career, in your

game, in your game business venture.

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This week, another lost episode.

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It's a good one.

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So make sure you've got those

Bluetooth headphones snugly

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in place, and let's do this.

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I realize I cheese it up a

little bit in those intros.

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You know I do that with love, right?

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And speaking of love, I would

love it if you would write a

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review of PlayMaker's podcast.

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That is the primary way that people

find out about the show, that they

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validate that it's some good stuff.

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Because when they hear it helps

people like you, then they

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realize it could help them too.

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So if you're feeling it, write it.

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If not, that's cool too.

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I'm gonna win you over.

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I am.

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I'm gonna make this show better and

better and better until you're like, Dang!

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Okay, you know what?

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I will write a review.

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Sure.

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That may not be today.

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That may not be tomorrow.

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But until that day comes, I'll

be here producing the interviews

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that give you what you need.

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And if you're not getting what

you need from these interviews,

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I want to hear about that too.

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Shoot me an email, jordanatbrightblack.

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co so I can find out what you do

need and produce that content.

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Now with all that said, let's get into the

introduction of this week's epic guest.

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When I worked at Zynga, I gotta be

honest, I went through some pretty

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stressful and difficult times and

I was so lucky to sit next to, for

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a brief period, this week's guest.

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Because not only was he someone

who I was able to learn from

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a lot just by working with him, but also

His presence was very calming to me.

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He would do things like

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remind me that things were

going to be all right.

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He would do things like maybe

on a Friday after work hours,

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offer me a glass of wine,

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stuff like that.

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And it really stuck with me that there's

such an impact to be made, not just

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by what you do, but how you do it.

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But this guest has certainly

done a lot that's very impressive

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on the what category as well.

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He was a game designer at Monolith

Productions, working on The Matrix Online.

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He worked as a senior developer at Sigil

Games, was a senior game designer at

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LucasArts, a mission designer at NCSoft.

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He was a lead game designer at Zynga.

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Elite Game Designer at Bigpoint.

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Elite Systems Designer at Sega.

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The director of game design at

TinyCo, and he currently works as

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lead systems designer at Hangar 13.

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Now, when we conducted this interview,

because it is a lost episode, he

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hadn't yet started at Hangar 13.

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Hangar 13, so we don't talk about that

in particular, but what we do talk

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about is the journey from tabletop

role playing design all the way to

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live operations on free to play and

mobile If you do, or plan to do, live

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operations, this interview is can't miss.

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Ladies and gentlemen, I

present Bruce Harlick.

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Bruce, welcome to PlayMakers.

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I'm happy to be here.

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Thanks for having me.

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Let's start off with a little bit

about your background in the industry,

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how you got into the industry.

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I know you've been So I'd like

to hear a little bit about that.

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Yeah, I mean, I've actually been around

for longer than I, uh, like to say.

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I got my start making, uh, pen and

paper role playing games way back

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in 1981, um, working on a superhero

role playing game called Champions.

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And superhero kind of, you know, Became

a reoccurring theme in my, my career.

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I stumbled into that because, um,

people I went to high school with,

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uh, made a role playing game.

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I went to work for them, learned

how to, uh, design games, uh,

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did a lot for that company.

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So you, you went to work for a

company that was started by people

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you went to high school with?

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Yeah.

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One high school classmate and then

another person from our gaming group.

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Um, and how old were they when

they started this company?

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Oh, George McDonald.

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Uh, must have been about 21 or 22.

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And Steve Peterson, maybe a year older.

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Wow.

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Um, I was 18, um, at, at the time,

literally right outta high school.

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So, so is this like, just after, like

when, when did Dungeons and Dragons

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come out and kind of explode the scene?

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DD first came out, I think it was in 70.

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Yeah, I think it was 1973.

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I think I got into it in 1974.

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So not at all close,

actually, to the early 80s.

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We're probably considered a second

generation role playing system, if

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D& D and that ilk were the first.

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Maybe third generation, depending

upon how you slice that kind of stuff.

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But we were very systematic,

very, um, uh, balanced.

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You kind of spent points

to buy whatever you wanted.

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We removed the randomness

from character generation.

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And that, I think, informed a lot

of my system design sensibilities

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as, uh, uh, the years went by.

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Anyway.

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How did you learn that stuff?

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How did you and George figure out

how to do that sort of balance?

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Well, George is a brilliant

designer, as is Steve.

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But the genesis of the idea For this

role playing game was George's and, uh,

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he came up with the basic idea and it

kind of took over our D& D group and

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we did a lot of playtesting for a few

years and went through many iterations

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of the rules and, uh, you know, until

finally, uh, he and Steve decided they

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wanted to publish this in, uh, 1981

and it turned out to be a big hit, but

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there was just a lot of trial and error.

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You learn by doing, which

is probably the best way.

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Um, if you're fortunate enough

to be able to do so to learn.

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So I did everything for the company

from shipping boxes to, uh, the last

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thing I did was, uh, acted as company

president for about six months.

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Um, but mostly what I did was

manage the game line for champions,

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uh, which involved developing a

product, managing game books for

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the role playing game, which.

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was a tabletop experience for those

of you who aren't familiar with

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the analog version of those things.

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So, you know, these books have

the information that, uh, people

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needed to create scenarios that

they would run their friends, their

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friends through and the information

that the players needed to create

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characters to play in those scenarios.

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So how many books came out and

what was the kind of span of time?

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Gosh, a lot of books came out.

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And let me tell you where my head is at.

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I'm thinking about the, um, you know,

I'm thinking about live operations and

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I know that's something you've had a

lot of experience with and, uh, and

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how, you know, when you're, when you

have a system like this and you're

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creating these books, it's sort of

like content updates to a live product.

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That's a great, great, uh, comparison

Jordan and you're, you're 100 percent

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right when the company, uh, was

going, we needed to put, we tried

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to put out about a book a month.

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We probably hit 10 a year.

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That's amazing.

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Um, to do that.

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And some of these, and they ranged

from small adventure books to large.

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Kind of rule supplement books and you

see the same pattern you look at Dungeons

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and Dragons or any of the successful role

playing games today They'll put out the

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core rule books and then they'll have

a regular cadence of support material

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new class books adventures bestiaries

grimoires Monster magic item books

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if they're fit, you know, all those

obviously for fantasy games types of

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things But just to keep the players

buying and to keep the players Money

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going in because once that you bought the

core rulebook, you could theoretically

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never need more books after that.

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You have what you need to play the game.

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It's kind of like buying a game

and then not buying any more

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downloadable content or any of

the sequels or anything like that.

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That's great for the publisher for

a year or two, but they need to

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keep, you know, the computer world.

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They need more stuff.

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Right.

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It's the same, it's the same problem

we run into with just, you know, having

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a product versus having a business.

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You can put out this one thing,

but to have a sustainable business,

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you got to figure out ways to

continue to have new things.

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Do you guys do like a leapfrog

style development on these books,

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or you'd have one coming out and

one earlier in development at

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the, kind of at the same time?

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We would have a lot.

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Um, in development at the same time,

I mostly worked with freelancers,

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the freelancers, it wasn't their day

job, they weren't always really good

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at hitting deadlines, you know, a lot

of people, first time writers, it's

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hard to write books, uh, be they game

books or novels or strategy guides or

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whatever, it's hard to write books,

so we would have a bunch of irons in

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the fire, we, we, as we got better at

things, we tried to have a more planned

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calendar and work to that schedule.

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But, you know, uh, fortune throws

you, uh, slings and arrows and, you

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know, sometimes you needed to adjust,

but it was not unlike building a

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cadence calendar for a live game.

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You wanted to make sure that, um,

you had major books coming out at

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specific times, like, oh, say, for

Gen Con, which was the biggest, um,

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gaming convention, um, at the time.

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And you always wanted a major release

at Gen Con, um, but you would kind

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of want to do a major book that

maybe follow up with a couple of

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lighter books and then a major book.

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And then a couple of lighter books.

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And the major books would

have higher price points.

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The minor books would have lower price

points, but you would also want to

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make sure that you, you didn't end

up with having four big, hefty rule

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books in a row, because that could

really overwhelm your players wallets

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or three adventures, which only

the game master would need because.

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That appealed to a very small

subset of your player base.

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How similar that is to what we would do

on a content calendar, wanting to balance

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some features right against each other

and not have too many similar mechanics.

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after another.

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It's interesting, Jordan,

because I've never actually

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made that comparison before.

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Me neither.

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Right, right now, but you

are 100 percent right.

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And it kind of explains maybe why

I enjoy live game ops so much.

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Okay, we're going to get to that.

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We're going to get to that.

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Before we do, take me from that work, pen

and paper kind of work, or it sounds like

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a lot of editorial and business work,

to Uh, your, your video game career.

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Yeah.

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So, um, we made a stab at doing a

video game champions, the computer

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game, um, which I think was at one

time was one of the most legendary

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pieces of vaporware in the industry.

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We actually got the cover of,

uh, computer gaming world, um,

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and never came out, which was

the first time that had happened.

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I think not the last.

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But, um, after Champions, I,

uh, wandered over to work for

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But Champions did get made.

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Oh, the the did, but that's much later.

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Okay, okay.

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Much later, and we weren't involved.

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Okay.

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After Hero Games, um, I, uh, wandered

over to work for Accolade slash Infogroms.

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What was the game was it Test Drive?

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The one where you were, like,

escaping the cops in a Ferrari?

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Uh, no, I, I, I didn't do that one,

but we did do a lot of racing games.

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Um, a lot of Looney Tunes games,

you know, a bunch of console games.

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Um, I was, I was like, uh, you know,

consuming, I was like a kid playing those

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games that you were working on there.

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Yeah, we, we, we did

stuff for the Dreamcast.

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I think I did some, uh, documentations

for some Xbox titles around the Xbox

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launch, the original Xbox, um, some PS1.

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Um, PC, all that kind of good

stuff, which, which, which was good.

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That was, that was a good, uh, couple

of years, but it wasn't actually

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making games, it was making things

that was peripheral to games.

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And what was that like, like emotionally

working, working on that stuff?

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Was it like, they should

have done these things?

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What, you know, what was the experience?

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Sometimes mostly you're very

aware because you're working

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very closely with the dev teams.

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Um, you know, most of whom, um,

were in house, um, And, uh, uh,

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the, the South Bay of California,

um, is what's now Silicon Valley.

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It wasn't back then, but

there was some of that.

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Uh, and sometimes you could offer

suggestions like, Hey, I've been playing

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the build and, but by the time I got

my hands on it, It was too late really

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affect any changes that probably made

you very hungry that's what i would

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imagine from that kind of role it did

and so i actually hear games got acquired

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and jump back to work for hero games

this was in the height of the dot com.

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boom and everything.

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When the parent company of Hero Games,

and that's when I was, um, running

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the company, when they kind of blew

up, I got fed up with, uh, working

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on games and quit gaming forever.

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Um, professionally, you know, I've, I've

always been a game player all my life.

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Um, and went to go do technical

writing and technical editing for,

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um, a tech startup and then send

microsystems on their coursework.

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And that's what I was doing when I kind

of accidentally got pulled back into the

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game industry this time on video games.

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Um, Yeah, it's, I think my career

sometimes can be defined by a series

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of accidents or, uh, coincidences, um,

rather than any kind of real planning.

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But, um, one of my, uh, good friends

and ex boss is Mike Pondsmith of

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RTalsorian Games was up, um, in Seattle

working at Monolith on Matrix Online.

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And I happened to be popping up to Seattle

for a vacation, got in touch with Mike.

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I hadn't seen him for a little while,

and Mike said in his mysterious way,

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Hey, we were just talking about you.

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We should chat.

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Um, and so my vacation kind of

turned into a job interview because,

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um, Monolith was also going to be

doing the DC Comics online game.

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Okay.

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And, um, Mike had been out with the

lead designer of that game, Jeff

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Zatkin, and I'm sorry, who's Mike?

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He's the creator of Cyberpunk

:

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called Artalsorian Games.

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He also worked for Microsoft,

where he worked on Crimson Skies

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and a number of other titles.

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Um, he worked on The Matrix Online.

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That's a great game.

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Crimson Skies is a classic.

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He is an amazingly, amazingly talented,

um, designer, and I learned so much when

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I was working with him at Art Talsorian.

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Anyway, Jeff Zatkin, who is one

of the old EverQuest designers.

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Who would then later on to go be

one of the co founders of EDAR, if

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you're familiar with, uh, with EDAR

now has a VR startup, Experiment 7.

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Anyway, yeah.

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EDAR does like, um, metrics and

sales data and stuff like that.

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Right, right.

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They, they kind of could Breakdown a

game's performance and match against

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Metacritic and other scores and companies

consult with them about feature sets

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and, you know, potentially how this game

will do in the market and whatnot, right?

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Yeah, I think they sold last year,

um, to another data analytics company.

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Jeff was an old champions player

and said, Hey, I want one of the,

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I need one of those champions guys.

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And Mike.

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He said, I know exactly who

you, um, should talk to.

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He used to work for me and I

literally called Mike the next day.

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Long story short, I ended up at

Monolith working on the Matrix online.

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Um, and this was my first house,

first in house development

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job, um, on a, uh, PC game.

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Um, as, as opposed to

I'm so sorry for you.

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It was a great experience.

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Um, it was a learning experience.

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And one of the great takeaways from

it was that a team of really smart,

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Intelligent people can make a crappy game.

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Yeah.

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Well, I was just kidding about

being sorry for you, of course.

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But, um, but sometimes,

sometimes that's that sentence.

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The next sentence is, is, you

know, about a death March, right?

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Oh, you know, it was game development.

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We had our, our, our, our

period of crunch ostensibly.

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They hired me DC game.

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And the thought was Matrix was going

to launch in a couple of months.

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I would work on that for a couple of

months to learn the technology, which

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was shared with, with the DC game.

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And then roll on to DC.

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Of course, that couple of months

stretched out to almost two years.

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And I got to do a lot of

great stuff, um, on that game,

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probably more than I should have.

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Um, but I, like I said, I got a

chance to work with some great people.

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Toby was the lead designer

on Asheron's Call.

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Wow.

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Wow.

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Very interesting.

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Some very interesting

designs in that game.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And just a really great outside

of the box, um, design thinker.

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I'm a super great guy.

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Um, and again, someone

I learned a lot from.

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Um, you know, Matrix had a number of

failings, some in the design, some

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in the production, some in the fact

that we came out, um, about the time

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that World of Warcraft launched.

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Um What about on the licensing side?

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Did that present challenges?

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Because it certainly could, especially

on a game that big and that live.

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There were some, um, I, from what I

understand, licensing challenges that

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was, uh, above my pay grade at that point.

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So I didn't have to deal with it.

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There were some interesting, um, things

like, I think they found out, um, maybe

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a couple of years into the project,

um, when the art director was showing

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some stuff and the Wachowski said,

you know, those look great, but you

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know, there's no blue in the matrix.

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It's like, well, and it's true.

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If you look at the movies, it's all green,

it's all green until whatever happens.

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And there's, uh, the clear sky, um,

in the third movie, I think it is.

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Um, so yeah, that, that apparently

required a lot of, um, rejiggering, um,

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on the art of the game and gave it kind of

a very green and, and what year is this?

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That was 2003.

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I was there 2003.

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Very end of 2003 to 2005.

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I'm curious how it lines up with, 'cause

I've always been blown away with that.

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Have you ever seen the Matrix game

that has that, that totally insane

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nonsense ending where the Wachowski

brothers are like sitting in a

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chair and talking about stories.

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So I enter the matrix.

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It's Path of Neo.

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Oh, Path of Neo, yeah.

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Yeah, yeah.

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And it's just this crazy thing,

um, that totally, I, I mean, I,

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I didn't play it at the time.

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I saw it years later, you know,

on an article or something.

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But, um, I just curious, cause if I, I

know if I was working on a matrix game

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and I saw that my head would explode.

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Yeah.

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We, um, we didn't have a

lot of interaction in the

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studio with the Wachowskis.

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Um, uh, we mostly worked, um, with a

writer that they designated, um, whose

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name I'm spacing on Paul Chadwick, I

think, like again, super nice guy, um, uh,

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very creative, but, uh, not a game writer.

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And so we would need to take

what paul was doing and translate

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it over to game stories.

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But mostly I was working

on systems on that game.

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So I was working on ability

systems and the crafting system

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and the itemization system.

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We were a little under

designered on that game.

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As you might tell by everything

that was on my plate there.

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I like that, under designered.

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Another lesson to take

away from that project.

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But we launched, which

I think was a success.

367

:

And the game was not.

368

:

Um, it certainly did not meet

expectations and, uh, there was a

369

:

layoff in there that those happened

quite often, um, in the game industry.

370

:

And, uh, so I went to LucasArts after

that, um, got to work with a couple

371

:

of my, um, Matrix Online coworkers.

372

:

We were working on an

Indiana Jones console game.

373

:

Um, we were in pre production

on that game my entire two

374

:

and a half years at LucasArts.

375

:

I remember that.

376

:

I don't remember what it was

called, but I do remember that game.

377

:

We never announced the title for

the, uh, next gen version, which is

378

:

what we were doing in house, but I

think a DS, PlayStation Portable, or

379

:

Game Boy version came out that was

Indiana Jones and the Staff of Kings.

380

:

But yeah, we made a big splash at

E3, um, With the cable car chase,

381

:

and then, um, I think showing off,

um, some of Natural Emotions, uh,

382

:

Euphoria technology and the hit

reactions and, uh, and stuff with that.

383

:

But, uh, it was, um, an interesting and

kind of another problematical project.

384

:

Um, and that from there, uh, I

actually moved back towards live

385

:

games when I joined, um, the

City of Heroes team at NCSoft.

386

:

Which later became Paragon Studios.

387

:

There, I joined as a senior mission

writer, creating mission content.

388

:

Which I did for about six months,

and then I stepped up to be lead

389

:

designer of the live project.

390

:

Uh, and that was great.

391

:

That was a fantastic

team, fantastic project.

392

:

It was a superhero game.

393

:

The best fan base ever.

394

:

Those players were so awesome and

so loyal and so knew the lore better

395

:

than I think anyone at the company.

396

:

Um, and they were just

a joy to create for.

397

:

And that game was around

for a long time, right?

398

:

It really kind of stood the test of time.

399

:

I think it lasted seven years

before NCSoft shut it down.

400

:

And it probably could have kept going.

401

:

Um I think it was still

making some money on that.

402

:

They had converted over to a free to play

model, um, and this was after I had left.

403

:

And that must have been a bit of a

relief from these projects that were,

404

:

you know, development for all this time

to like a live game, it's already out,

405

:

and you know that what you're working

on is going to be seen, going to get

406

:

played, and going to get enjoyed.

407

:

Right.

408

:

I mean, within the first couple

weeks of me, um, joining there, I

409

:

got to do some content that came out.

410

:

You know, just a couple months later,

which was considered fast in those

411

:

days, um, for, for a PC game, um,

which I thought was great because I

412

:

got to see how the players reacted to

what I was creating and it helped me.

413

:

Know what to pay attention to and how to

create better stuff, um, for the players

414

:

desires, um, on there, got to work on

some good, uh, game systems with them on,

415

:

uh, you know, the, we worked on a boxed

expansion going rogue while I was there.

416

:

Um, and this was in, um,

:

417

:

Something very strange started to

happen, um, these Facebook games were

418

:

coming along and, uh, blowing up, and

this little game called Farmville was

419

:

getting millions of players a day.

420

:

I heard of that.

421

:

Yeah, yeah, and, um, one of my ex

LucasArts, uh, coworkers, Bill Mooney,

422

:

Um, who I was playing D and D with,

uh, had taken over as, um, general

423

:

manager of FarmVille and after I spent

one evening complaining about the

424

:

crop balance, um, in the crop ramp

in FarmVille, he recruited me over to

425

:

join, um, Zingo to work on FarmVille.

426

:

So, uh, I did that at the end of 2009

and that was a crazy, crazy time.

427

:

Yeah.

428

:

That's where met.

429

:

Exactly.

430

:

Exactly.

431

:

You know.

432

:

Zynga in those days, man,

it was the wild west.

433

:

Um, their Farmville had little process.

434

:

Um, when I joined it, it was

pretty much possible to come

435

:

up with an idea on a Monday and

have it in the game by Thursday.

436

:

Um, I mean, just.

437

:

Insane and as the time went by and

have that idea played by, you know,

438

:

20 million people by Friday and we

were enjoying the same crazy growth.

439

:

Um, I mean, I think when I joined,

it was about 18, 20 million people.

440

:

I think we peaked in

March at about 32 million.

441

:

That's daily players, not monthly

or lifetime or anything like that.

442

:

Um, so just, it was finally,

I mean, it's, it's insane.

443

:

It's absolutely unheard of a chance

to reach, um, the mass market.

444

:

Um, and that's where I fell in love with

free to play game design and where I kind

445

:

of fell in love with, uh, casual game.

446

:

Um, design and certainly a fast-paced

live game, live ops, um, environment.

447

:

Um, and I was at Zynga all told, um, for

four and a half years working on Farmville

448

:

as a senior designer and lead designer.

449

:

Um, working on CastleVille as a senior

designer and lead, and um, lead designer.

450

:

I think I did some time

on, um, Sheffield as well.

451

:

Um, all those great invest in

express, um, style games and, um,

452

:

uh, that came to an end in, uh, 2014.

453

:

And I, uh, took a flyer on going

over to, um, Germany, uh, to a

454

:

company called big point, uh, to

help them work on mobile games.

455

:

And I did that for about seven months.

456

:

Um, and came back here, um, joining Sega

Networks in their Three Rings studio.

457

:

Three Rings, uh, people might recall

Puzzle Pirates, which was, I think Three

458

:

Rings is, uh, uh, greatest, um, creation,

um, back in the day, which was a web based

459

:

game, but Sega Networks had bought them

and, um, was doing mobile games with them.

460

:

And we were working on a lane battler

that, uh, based off the Spiral Knights

461

:

game that Three Rings had done.

462

:

And you kind of brought your

LiveOps experiences from Zynga.

463

:

From, and really from what you

had done even way back at Heroes

464

:

in some sense to Big Point and

presumably to some other companies.

465

:

Yeah, interestingly though, I was working

more on live games when I did that.

466

:

It was a chance to go back, I mean

live games, I'm sorry, on new games.

467

:

Um, a chance to go back and work

on some, um, some new games.

468

:

I think, I kind of think if you've

done live stuff, you really want to,

469

:

uh, do some games from the ground up.

470

:

Because now you know all this stuff

that's going to happen in those

471

:

games and you want to make sure.

472

:

To like prepare the teams beforehand,

you know what I mean, right?

473

:

You want to say, Hey, why aren't

we paying attention to what we're

474

:

going to do the week after we launch

in the month after we launch in

475

:

the three months after we launch?

476

:

And how are we going to

be keeping content going?

477

:

What kind of evergreen systems do we have?

478

:

Um, all those types of things when

you're working on the new games.

479

:

Why aren't we paying attention

to our operations before we

480

:

even know what kind of game?

481

:

So let's let's talk about that a

little bit, the kind of live ops and

482

:

how to prepare a game for live ops.

483

:

Like, imagine, you know, there's someone

listening who's got a game coming

484

:

out, mobile, um, PC, but it's kind

of a live, maybe free to play game.

485

:

What kinds of stuff should

they be thinking about?

486

:

First of all, the amount of

content they're launching with.

487

:

There was an old rule of thumb.

488

:

In the, uh, MMORPG space that

said the players will consume the

489

:

content twice as fast as you think

they will, um, and this was true.

490

:

Even if you accounted for that, um,

players will consume your content

491

:

as quickly as they possibly can much

more quickly than you think they can.

492

:

This is magnified by

the free to play model.

493

:

Where players have ways to accelerate the

process through the game, um, in return

494

:

for premium currency, um, a lot of times.

495

:

So, you want to make sure that you

have, um, enough content, that there's

496

:

some repeatable content, that there

are evergreen systems in there.

497

:

Um, that will continue to spin and provide

a baseline of activity even without

498

:

you needing to release, um, any new

features after the game has gone live.

499

:

Now, PvP style games, uh, competitive

games are fantastic for this

500

:

because, in effect, the players

are creating their own content.

501

:

If I'm playing, um, a game of

war, the, my evergreen content are

502

:

the other players there that I'm

attacking or that are attacking me.

503

:

And that's that that struggle for power.

504

:

But if you're a more casual game, if

you're a bubble popper or a match three

505

:

or a farming game or something like

that, um, eventually your players are

506

:

going to get to the end of the levels

that you have crafted or maxed out

507

:

their farm and their crops or whatever.

508

:

And it becomes a question

of what do they do then?

509

:

How are we going to Continue to

support this game, this game design

510

:

while it's live and introduce

new things for the players to

511

:

do in extend the content, right?

512

:

And also, what's the what's the

cost of making that content, right?

513

:

Like, can you get it done on time

and on a budget that actually makes

514

:

sense to continue with this product?

515

:

Exactly, and I think Zynga, at Zynga,

we were kind of always trapped by

516

:

what we called the, the, uh, cadence

treadmill, um, that we needed to put

517

:

out a certain amount of content to

keep our players engaged every week,

518

:

um, and it was just this, uh, like

running fast, but just to stay in place.

519

:

And as your game got older, Yeah, but

if staying in place is like, you know, a

520

:

million dollars a day, That's fantastic.

521

:

You know, it's a pretty

good place to stay.

522

:

But, and you can afford a big

team when you're doing that.

523

:

When you're, you know, generating, yeah,

a million dollars a day, or a hundred

524

:

million dollars a quarter or whatever.

525

:

There comes a time where you need

to be doing more and more and more

526

:

content in order to keep the players

who are remaining in your game engaged

527

:

and they get faster and faster and

faster at completing this stuff

528

:

and your treadmill is speeding up

and speeding up and speeding up and

529

:

eventually it comes to a point where

it's probably not cost effective and

530

:

that's when you end up sunsetting a

game or offshoring it or And that's

531

:

when you The mythical man month, right?

532

:

So it gets more, it doesn't, the, the cost

of a bigger team doesn't scale linearly.

533

:

You don't, you don't start making an

equivalent amount of content just because

534

:

you add twice as many people to a team.

535

:

Exactly.

536

:

And there's a cost in talent as well.

537

:

A people get bored doing the

same thing over and over again,

538

:

but these people are exhausted.

539

:

Exhausted people who are working on

these successful games, um, they're

540

:

developing this incredible skill set

and that skill set is transportable

541

:

to the other games at your company.

542

:

And so you, you want these people

to be able to move on and, you know,

543

:

probably move up to better roles and, um.

544

:

Bring, um, these lessons, uh, that

they've learned to your other games.

545

:

And so, these experienced creators

are moving off and you're needing to

546

:

train up and mentor, uh, new creators,

uh, in this who maybe aren't as

547

:

fast, um, at, at doing this stuff.

548

:

And so, you know, things

start to take longer.

549

:

The, the upside of that is that

you're bringing in people with new

550

:

ideas and, and kind of fresh eyes.

551

:

The downside is that you're

moving out the experience.

552

:

Well, and I think something that we

saw at Zynga is you're kind of training

553

:

everyone that leaving a project is,

is success and staying with a project

554

:

for a long time is like not as good.

555

:

Uh, that, that's a, that's a

challenging precedent long term.

556

:

Yeah, I, I think everybody feels like

they want to create the new thing and they

557

:

don't understand that if you're on a live

game, you're creating the new thing Every

558

:

week or every month, um, on, uh, you know,

like when we were on Castleville, we got

559

:

a chance to introduce new stories and new

systems and new features every six weeks,

560

:

you know, for each of the designers, um,

on that game, and that's a chance to not

561

:

spend three years working on a new game

or 18 months, um, working on a new game,

562

:

but just to spend, you know, half of a

quarter working on a major feature, um,

563

:

That you then get to see in the game,

you get to see how the players react

564

:

to it, you get to see how successful it

is, how to learn from it, um, and how to

565

:

make yourself a better designer for the

next time that, that you move things.

566

:

It's, it's incredibly, um, educational.

567

:

Yeah.

568

:

Yeah.

569

:

I mean, the amount that I

learned at Zynga is very high.

570

:

It was an, it was an extreme

educational experience.

571

:

That's that's for sure.

572

:

But you know, at the same time, all

this thing with people, you know, kind

573

:

of, kind of moving on all the time.

574

:

And especially a lot of leads constantly

moving, moving to new projects.

575

:

It's sort of like, If you gave someone

a plot of land to farm and you said,

576

:

your goal is to farm as much fruit from

this as possible, but only for a month.

577

:

And then it's going to be

someone else's problem.

578

:

Are they going to take care of that land?

579

:

Yeah.

580

:

Are they going to pay attention

to crop rotation, uh, et cetera.

581

:

And it's the same thing.

582

:

If you have a bunch of highly motivated

and talented, uh, product managers

583

:

and, um, producers and general managers

and designers, and your goal is.

584

:

You need to make as

much money as possible.

585

:

Um, you need to hit your,

your revenue targets.

586

:

Um, and you know that you're going to be

moving on in three months or six months

587

:

to another project or another game.

588

:

Are you paying attention to the other

indicators, um, of your game's health, uh,

589

:

to your, your retention and your longterm

retention and, um, trying to, to stem

590

:

off, uh, A live game's inevitable decline.

591

:

And obviously, you know, Zynga's,

look, they've paid the price.

592

:

One of the big learnings you brought

is, hey, we have to prepare while making

593

:

the game for what it's going to be like

to produce content in an ongoing basis.

594

:

What, what kinds of systems have you found

to be really helpful for, for doing that?

595

:

Um, so that will vary from game to game.

596

:

You need, you want to look at things that

are going to run without the need for

597

:

you to put any kind of content in there.

598

:

So, um, the traditional things, um,

are So PVP is one thing you mentioned.

599

:

PVP, but that doesn't work in every game.

600

:

But leaderboards, um, that type

of weekly contest, that type of

601

:

thing, work in a lot of games.

602

:

Mm hmm.

603

:

And, uh, those types of

things are very useful.

604

:

Leaderboards is almost like the

lightest form of PvP you can do, right?

605

:

Exactly.

606

:

Friendly competitions, who

could be the most helpful, are,

607

:

I think, useful in games that

appeal to a more casual audience.

608

:

Along that, those lines.

609

:

Collections.

610

:

Are good, you know, and they've been

even good on console games, um, to

611

:

a great extent 100 percent on the

Xbox or the PlayStation, right?

612

:

Getting all the trophies, all the

achievements, that's kind of a collection,

613

:

um, long term grind for those games.

614

:

And it keeps people engaged hopefully

long enough so that when the downloadable

615

:

content comes out, oh, they're still

around and then they buy that and

616

:

there's some more achievements to

get from that and You know, keep them

617

:

engaged for the lifespan of the game.

618

:

And I think the same works

on these mobile games.

619

:

Um, and on, uh, you know, the, the

web games and that type of stuff.

620

:

The collection instinct within us

is very strong and that works well.

621

:

Which is why listeners need to listen to

every episode of the PlayMakers podcast.

622

:

To sort of collect them all.

623

:

Yes.

624

:

You also want to design, pay attention

to how you design your content tools.

625

:

So that it is easy to put in new content.

626

:

And that content can be put in with

a minimum of programmer intervention.

627

:

Looking at systems that you're going

to repeat and templatizing them.

628

:

So that, um, You don't need to do any

programming, you, you, the designer or

629

:

the content implementer could just fill,

you know, fill out the template, change

630

:

what they need to change and get something

that looks, with new art, you know, but

631

:

still has the same underlying systems.

632

:

That's a really good point because if

you need to apply your engineering,

633

:

Resources to just maintaining content,

then how are you going to apply them

634

:

to the new stuff, the new features

that you want to have in addition

635

:

to just additional content, right?

636

:

Or the big unspoken thing about live ops,

the tech debt that you're accumulating

637

:

every time you're adding something.

638

:

And, you know, you need to make sure

that you, some of your engineers

639

:

are there to keep your code base

stable and your thing optimized.

640

:

Um, one of the problems we ran into

FarmVille was that as players got

641

:

more and more stuff on their farm,

the performance started to choke.

642

:

It was flash based and it was terrible.

643

:

But expanding the farm was a great thing.

644

:

Driver of revenue.

645

:

And there was this constant battle

between our operations pod that would

646

:

find optimizations, um, to make the game

run better and was like, okay, great.

647

:

Thanks for running.

648

:

Fantastic.

649

:

Oh, good.

650

:

Does that mean that we could

do another farm expansion?

651

:

I guess so.

652

:

Um, and there was this constant cycle.

653

:

I think the same thing was happening

with just the team sizes, you know, like

654

:

hundreds of people, you know, expanding

the size of the team also helps, helps

655

:

you develop more, but, but whatever kind

of procedural debt you have As a, as

656

:

a studio is also going to be impacted,

compounded, really, every time you grow.

657

:

Yeah, I think tools are very important.

658

:

I think it's something that most games

don't pay enough attention to until

659

:

far too late in the, uh, the process.

660

:

And it's wonderful when you could

get something implemented and

661

:

suddenly what used to take you 10

hours is taking you two hours to do.

662

:

That means you could probably still

do that level of content creation.

663

:

And go on to think of what's the next

thing I want to add because no, none of

664

:

these mobile games are ever released.

665

:

None of these Facebook games.

666

:

No game really, I think,

has ever released complete.

667

:

It's always a question of,

uh, we've got to release it.

668

:

What are we going to scope?

669

:

Uh, what do we think we're

going to add in later?

670

:

And if you're good, you preparing

that road map post launch that

671

:

says, okay, two months, Okay.

672

:

Later, we're going to have this feature

that we, we had to scope three months

673

:

after launch, there's this other feature

in that you've got some kind of plan

674

:

cadence, so you aren't scrambling, um,

trying to think, Oh God, the game's

675

:

launched, everything's doing great.

676

:

We're running out of content.

677

:

We need to do something Jordan go, which

is the way a lot of live ops seems to run.

678

:

And I think, you know, a lot of

people still, still think like,

679

:

Hey, free to play, you know, anyone

can get on the app store and anyone

680

:

can make a game free to download.

681

:

But the reality is all these bits

and bobs that we're talking about,

682

:

make, make free to play actually

have a pretty high barrier to

683

:

entry to come in and be successful.

684

:

You, you need to play a

pretty high level game.

685

:

You need to be thinking about the future.

686

:

You need to be thinking

about your processes.

687

:

You need to be ready for a big, long haul.

688

:

Yeah, they used to say a lot about

making MMOs that they weren't,

689

:

not a sprint, it was a marathon.

690

:

But it's not really a marathon

because just crossing the finish

691

:

line doesn't finish the race.

692

:

That kind of starts it, right?

693

:

Uh, you know, that's just

your first milestone.

694

:

And after that you need to maintain it.

695

:

Um, and, uh, you needed to keep going.

696

:

Um, and you, you, you

definitely want those roadmaps.

697

:

You want to balance your features

much like I had to balance the books.

698

:

Um, the types of books that I was putting

out when I was managing the champions

699

:

game line, you want to manage your types

of features, um, that you're putting out

700

:

so that they aren't all the same type.

701

:

The features you're putting out generally

are designed to, uh, enhance your revenue

702

:

or enhance your retention or to provide

some kind of player joy or satisfaction.

703

:

And if you have a quarter where you've

done nothing but hard revenue, um,

704

:

features or grinds, um, for the players,

then you're probably going to really

705

:

suffer in your retention metrics.

706

:

If you, you just are concentrating on

retention, you may well suffer on revenue.

707

:

Although there is something to be

said that Retention will lead to

708

:

revenue, um, over the long run, but

you still need those revenue features.

709

:

That's, I would just point out, there's

a fractal kind of nature to that

710

:

where then within retention or within

monetization, you have the same issue.

711

:

If you, if you try to monetize the

same way over and over again, that's

712

:

going to have diminishing payoff.

713

:

If you try to retain with the same, you

know, surprise and delight features,

714

:

then the surprise and delight is

going to be less and less each time.

715

:

So you have to constantly be

pushing yourself to do new things.

716

:

Right, and these new things happen

and they work and then you probably

717

:

repeat them a while later and they

work and then maybe they become

718

:

part of your content cadence.

719

:

Where you rotate them in

with your other features.

720

:

So, um, you have a longer period

between, um, features to keep them fresh.

721

:

And it also turns out that stuff

that was, that was old reliable.

722

:

Oh, this feature is fantastic.

723

:

And it's always does great for

us, um, in revenue and retention.

724

:

And we could do it about every four weeks.

725

:

It starts to lose effectiveness.

726

:

And it's like, okay, so maybe now

we're doing them every six weeks.

727

:

Maybe we need to do them every two months.

728

:

Maybe we just need to retire

that feature type for a while.

729

:

Um, and so hopefully you're coming up

with these new features that you're

730

:

trying out and the ones that work are

slotting into that cadence rotation.

731

:

Just try to keep it all

fresh for the players.

732

:

Let's talk a little bit about

the kind of cadence calendar.

733

:

Do you have a system that you've

used at several companies?

734

:

Like, Hey, I like to.

735

:

Make a spreadsheet that

kind of works like this.

736

:

Here's how I think about what

should be in development.

737

:

What's coming up in

two months, six months.

738

:

How do you kind of manage that?

739

:

So that's very interesting because

mostly it's a collaborative process.

740

:

It's not just, um, the designer,

um, sitting down and thinking of it.

741

:

It's probably, um, somebody who's

running the business side and that

742

:

might be a producer at a company or a

product manager, sometimes a designer.

743

:

But, but who's ever in charge of that,

the design lead sitting down and saying,

744

:

okay, we need to plan out what our.

745

:

Quarterly calendar looks

like we would do that.

746

:

Maybe a month before the previous

quarter expired or six weeks, you

747

:

know, halfway through a quarter.

748

:

What let's look at the next quarter.

749

:

What do we want to do?

750

:

What kind of features do we want to be?

751

:

And there are a number of ways to come

up with the features idea, but you might

752

:

have a basket of those or you might

just say, okay, we really want to need

753

:

to concentrate on revenue this quarter.

754

:

So about 60 percent of what we're

going to do is going to be revenue

755

:

features, about 35 percent of them.

756

:

40 percent of them are going to be

more aimed towards retention, and

757

:

we'll do 10 percent user love, because

user love doesn't really make us

758

:

money or, you know, move the metrics

that, that, that, that we can measure.

759

:

Um, and then you try to pace

them out on the calendar.

760

:

So again, you aren't slamming

people with similar things in a

761

:

row so that things feel fresh.

762

:

When you're looking at kind of a longer

term, you're kind of looking each quarter,

763

:

let's say, and say, what's our big new

innovative thing going to be this quarter?

764

:

Where are we going to invest a

lot of our risk in dev dollars?

765

:

What do we want to do?

766

:

And, uh, yeah, I wanted to try to

avoid that, but we're publishing a

767

:

bold beat and that hopefully would

lead to a golden mechanic, which is

768

:

something that could be repeatable.

769

:

Um, both in your game and then maybe

also in other games, um, in your company

770

:

and you want to slot those in too and

make sure that those are well staffed

771

:

and well funded, uh, and you know when

they're going to come out and if they're

772

:

risky, you want to make sure that you have

support features around them that kind of

773

:

bolster the areas in which they're risky.

774

:

So if they don't work, you're not

completely missing your target numbers

775

:

because there's nothing worse for a live

game than to miss its target numbers.

776

:

The executives start to get very nervous.

777

:

And yet the best you can really

do is hit your target numbers.

778

:

Yeah.

779

:

You can exceed them and then

they get really nervous.

780

:

Yeah.

781

:

You can, you can exceed them.

782

:

And then, and then that's

your new target numbers.

783

:

Yeah, exactly.

784

:

It, um, it, you get a pat on the

back and then the next quarter you,

785

:

you have, you know, um, big KPIs to,

uh, to try to meet because of that.

786

:

So, okay.

787

:

So what about.

788

:

You're talking about, you kind of

create this plan right in advance,

789

:

but no, no plan survives contact

with the, the users of the game.

790

:

Right.

791

:

And so presumably, you know, something

you want to do doesn't work, something you

792

:

didn't expect to work works really well.

793

:

And now suddenly you've got to

make some, some adjustments, right?

794

:

Pivots, right?

795

:

It's all about pivoting.

796

:

Like I think a couple of shows ago, Mike

was talking about pivoting and design.

797

:

Um, as stuff comes up, you

need to pivot in your ops.

798

:

Um, that's episode two with Mike Micah.

799

:

Right.

800

:

An excellent episode.

801

:

You need to pivot in your

live ops plan as well.

802

:

Um, it could be, uh, God forbid,

uh, one of the, the, the, your

803

:

architect, uh, has a motorcycle

accident and breaks their coating arm.

804

:

And, uh, suddenly you're,

you're going to be two or three

805

:

months behind on the project.

806

:

Has that happened to you?

807

:

That actually happened to us on Matrix

online, uh, in the middle of crunch, uh,

808

:

on our one day off, one of our senior,

uh, Guys did that and it was interesting

809

:

for a while or it could be that your

revenues are falling or your attention is

810

:

following some other key metric is falling

here and you need to divert some of your

811

:

development efforts to investigate and try

to plug those holes or it could be that.

812

:

Your big bull beat is taking

longer, just longer to do.

813

:

It's not working.

814

:

Um, sometimes you look at it, you know,

three weeks into into when it started to

815

:

develop for two weeks in and said, yeah,

this, this isn't going to work the way

816

:

that we thought it was going to work.

817

:

We need to go back to the drawing board

and we need to throw the towel in on it.

818

:

And then hopefully you've got

backup stuff that you could slot

819

:

in, um, to those release dates.

820

:

As you scramble around, it's, uh,

if you've, uh, ever watched, uh, any

821

:

television shows about the production

of sketch comedy shows or new shows or

822

:

whatever, and they have the big board

with, with all the, um, segments on

823

:

there and, and they need to scramble them

around to, to see what's going to fill.

824

:

It's the same kind of thing, but, uh,

not to fill an hour's worth of content,

825

:

but to fill a quarter's worth of, uh,

Of content on there on Frontierville.

826

:

I used to have basically a room full

of post it notes, like hundreds.

827

:

Yeah.

828

:

And sometimes they would want them out

of the room and I would just take all the

829

:

post it notes and stick them in a drawer.

830

:

And then when it was free and I just

put them back up, it is a luxury to have

831

:

a dedicated war room for a live game.

832

:

And it's a really or a war area if

you can't afford a room, but where

833

:

you can keep that stuff up there.

834

:

Where, uh, you could have your post

it notes of your stuff that's in

835

:

development, and your ideas, and, and,

and everything, and just, um, be it a

836

:

whiteboard, be it, uh, whatever, a place

where you could go and take a look,

837

:

where, uh, the execs could go and take

a look and just give you that snapshot.

838

:

Of what's going on, but also that

working surface for when you need

839

:

to rejigger things, it's there and

it's live for you to move around.

840

:

So, Bruce, now, as you're kind of, you

know, doing this and you're working on

841

:

this calendar, you're getting feedback

from the audience about what works.

842

:

How do you design for them?

843

:

How do you kind of understand the audience

and do stuff that they're going to

844

:

love, that they're going to respond to?

845

:

You're going to have a lot of tools at

your disposal, probably at your company.

846

:

There's fan forums, official forums.

847

:

Hopefully you have some kind of,

um, community manager, uh, working

848

:

there that's bubbling up data,

possibly, um, you know, verbatim

849

:

from player forums and whatnot.

850

:

But the most important thing you

could do is play the game and

851

:

play the game without using any

of your advantages as a developer.

852

:

So don't give yourself a bunch of free

premium currency or advance yourself.

853

:

Try to make sure that you have

an account where you're playing

854

:

like a legitimate player and

that you play that one every day.

855

:

Um, and get passionate about your game.

856

:

A lot of times in the game industry,

you're not fortunate enough to

857

:

work on a game that you would

play, um, in your leisure time.

858

:

That, uh, you may be a big Call

of Duty fan, but you'll never work

859

:

on a first person shooter type.

860

:

Um, and instead you're

working on a match three game.

861

:

Become a match three fan.

862

:

You need to.

863

:

You need to have, as a designer,

a passion for that game.

864

:

Um, and get to know your audience,

really get to know your audience.

865

:

Um, so, you know, what's

appropriate for them.

866

:

I think one of the big problems that,

um, the less experienced, the newer

867

:

designers have is that they'll come

in and they're full of great passion

868

:

and great ideas, but they're not

thinking about the target audience.

869

:

So they'll come up with these ideas that

would work great amongst their peer group,

870

:

these ideas for features, these complex

systems, and these things that would be

871

:

perfect for them or their friends, but

not necessarily for, say, the 45 year old

872

:

woman or the 50 year old man who's playing

that game that is not a hardcore gamer.

873

:

So you really need to learn

your audience and make sure

874

:

that you're designing for them.

875

:

So if I'm understanding you

correctly, your, your point is,

876

:

Hey, there's, there's this, uh,

there's this young game designer.

877

:

He's like, I wouldn't play this

game, but here's the features

878

:

that I would like in it.

879

:

And you can see there's something

mismatched there, like, you have to

880

:

get into the mind of the person who

would play the game and then design

881

:

the features that that person wants.

882

:

Right, like on FarmVille there was

a running joke about doing a tractor

883

:

jousting thing and we all thought that was

cool and whatnot, but it probably would

884

:

not have played to our target demographic.

885

:

A lot of times during our brainstorms

we'll be planning out our quest, um,

886

:

theme calendar, a lot of the subjects

that would, themes that were suggested

887

:

would be, That's interesting, but I

don't think that our audience really

888

:

cares about a Farmville questline that

celebrates Harry Houdini's birthday.

889

:

You really want to find things

that are more on point and more in

890

:

line with what your audience wants.

891

:

Absolutely.

892

:

Well, thank you for giving the audience

of PlayMakers so much to think about today

893

:

in terms of live ops and free to play.

894

:

Thank you very much for having me, Jordan.

895

:

It was a real pleasure.

896

:

It's a great show.

897

:

I'm really enjoying it.

898

:

Big ups to Bruce for coming on the show

and sharing so much of his experience

899

:

and knowledge with our community.

900

:

If you enjoyed it, then, uh, then you're

gonna want to see what's coming next

901

:

because we got interviews coming that

are fresh, that are gonna be amazing.

902

:

I don't want to give anything away right

now, but I have a very, very special guest

903

:

coming up, possibly in the next episode,

certainly the next one or two episodes,

904

:

and, uh, I know you're gonna love it.

905

:

He's a legend, some might say a god,

possibly a god, possibly a legend,

906

:

possibly I'm just making this up.

907

:

You don't know and you won't

know unless you subscribe.

908

:

To see what is coming up And I want

to say something else, which is this

909

:

You've made it to the end of the

episode that makes you special That

910

:

makes you part of the inner circle.

911

:

This is the end of episode inner circle

area And you're here you made it here

912

:

and you didn't even know it was here

And you got here which shows me that

913

:

you truly belong to the end of the

episode inner circle club This is a club

914

:

that holds its meetings at the end of

episodes of playmakers And, you know,

915

:

we talk about things relevant to us as

a group, kind of our inner circle stuff.

916

:

Right now, the agenda for this week's

kind of session is the announcement

917

:

of the club, which we've done.

918

:

So, I think we can strike the

gavel and call this one over.

919

:

I will see you in the next episode of

Playmakers and then in the post episode

920

:

session of the Inner Circle Club.

921

:

Until then, I bid you adieu.

922

:

Stay playful, my friends.

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