Episode 24

Crypto Gaming 101, with Emma-Jane MacKinnon-Lee

Emma-Jane is a space engineering dropout liberating gaming and fashion in web3 through mod culture. She is the Founder & CEO of DIGITALAX, the pioneer Digital Fashion NFT protocol and marketplace for gaming and esports. In short, she’s a dynamic innovator living at the intersection of gaming and emerging internet technologies. 

In this mind-bending episode, we deep dive into the metaverse and discuss how the game industry stands to be disrupted during the rise of ”web3” technologies that enable digital scarcity, decentralization, and interoperability. 


  • NFT’s and cryptocurrency as they relate to gaming 
  • The intersection of the gaming industry and web3 
  • Who are the new digital natives? 
  • Digital fashion, and the challenge of interoperability
  • How web3 presents an opportunity for more stability in the game industry rat race
  • Advice for game devs looking to break into the NFT space



Resources Mentioned:  


Transcript
Jordan:

Welcome to Playmakers, the game industry podcast.

Jordan:

Whether you work at a studio, publisher, service provider, or startup, this

Jordan:

is the podcast that will give you all the information and entertainment you

Jordan:

need to succeed in the game industry.

Jordan:

Who am I?

Jordan:

Just your friendly neighborhood veteran designer and producer, Jordan Blackman.

Jordan:

In each episode of Playmakers, I go to work uncovering insights,

Jordan:

tactics, and know-how from a wide range of game industry luminaries.

Jordan:

My goal?

Jordan:

To help you win the game of making games.

Jordan:

Are you ready?

Jordan:

Then let's begin.

Jordan:

Welcome back to Playmakers podcast.

Jordan:

This is season two of Playmakers podcast, coming at you.

Jordan:

I'm very excited about it.

Jordan:

Let me tell you what we have in store for this episode: Emma Jane McKinnon Lee.

Jordan:

She is a space engineering dropout who is working at the crux of fashion, web three

Jordan:

technologies—aka crypto, NFTs, and gaming.

Jordan:

She has a company called DIGITALAX, which is a digital fashion

Jordan:

NFT company.

Jordan:

They have their own protocol, marketplace, and coin.

Jordan:

She also does work in esports, so she is really living at the edge of Ethereum

Jordan:

gaming, web three, and crypto in games.

Jordan:

I got to know her and see that she’s hustling and grinding every

Jordan:

day in this brave new world.

Jordan:

I’m excited to share her perspective on the value of all this stuff in gaming.

Jordan:

How does it affect the game industry?

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How does it affect what we do?

Jordan:

I know there are a lot of people in the game industry who are skeptical

Jordan:

about the role of crypto games, NFT games, and decentralized apps.

Jordan:

So, if that’s you, you’re going to get some perspective.

Jordan:

I’m not saying you’ll be convinced one way or another, but you’re going to get

Jordan:

perspective from someone who is living, breathing, and innovating on that edge.

Jordan:

That’s what we have with Emma Jane McKinnon Lee.

Jordan:

Now, before we get to the interview, I just want to ask if you would please

Jordan:

consider subscribing to the show, giving it a like, and sharing it.

Jordan:

Do you know someone who should be listening to this episode?

Jordan:

Do you know someone, as I do, who is maybe working now in this new space

Jordan:

where gaming meets NFTs, meets crypto, meets value, scarcity, and web three?

Jordan:

If you do, they probably need to hear this episode.

Jordan:

So go ahead and send it their way—you’ll be doing me a favor and them a favor.

Jordan:

That makes you pretty cool all around!

Jordan:

Don't forget, if you’re interested in sharing what you want on the show, you can

Jordan:

shoot me an email at jordan@rightblack.co.

Jordan:

And with that said, I’m just excited—for this interview, for

Jordan:

season two, and to be here for you.

Jordan:

We have a lot queued up, and it feels good to be back.

Jordan:

So, with that said, let’s get into this episode with Emma Jane McKinnon

Jordan:

Lee, coming at you right about...

Jordan:

now!

Jordan:

Emma, welcome to Playmakers.

Emma:

Thank you for having me.

Jordan:

It's really exciting for me because you originally reached out to

Jordan:

me, and I realized very quickly that you were deeply plugged into the world

Jordan:

of crypto and NFTs and were really excited about the connection to games.

Jordan:

I just felt you were the perfect person to dive into this with.

Emma:

Yeah, it's exciting.

Emma:

I remember, I think it was last year, wasn’t it?

Emma:

And that was before all of the NFT craziness and rush.

Emma:

So, it's like a completely different paradigm that we're referencing it now.

Emma:

Yeah, like November 2020, I think it was, or something like that.

Emma:

I wouldn’t have even thought that by

Emma:

2021 everything would be completely different in terms of how NFTs are viewed

Emma:

and their importance for the future.

Emma:

So, I’m really excited to do this.

Jordan:

You know, that was the first time I heard the term NFT.

Emma:

Ah, okay.

Emma:

That’s good.

Emma:

I didn’t know that.

Jordan:

Yeah.

Jordan:

So, I’ve already learned a lot from you, and I’m excited to learn more today

Jordan:

and have the audience learn as well.

Jordan:

How did you get into this space?

Jordan:

How did you become an expert in this area of crypto and NFTs?

Emma:

Sure.

Emma:

So, my background is actually in mechanical and space engineering, but

Emma:

then I dropped out halfway through to go full-time into web three and blockchain.

Emma:

It just really aligned with the broader movement of the ecosystem

Emma:

and its values, and I became incredibly excited about the future.

Emma:

I've been in the space for about four years now.

Emma:

I was involved both from a financial perspective, as part of a hedge fund

Emma:

where we focused on tail-risk hedging in the crypto markets, and from

Emma:

a technology perspective as well.

Emma:

I worked with the Dubai government on how to implement blockchain

Emma:

technologies into industries and what that looks like in terms of enabling

Emma:

ecosystems, sustainability, and growth.

Emma:

Dubai was a really interesting region to work with because they face challenges

Emma:

with sustainability, particularly since 90% of their population are

Emma:

expats.

Emma:

So, how do they maintain retention?

Emma:

I became familiar not just with the technical side, but also with how to apply

Emma:

blockchain in real-world use cases that

Emma:

actually generate value for people interacting with the technology.

Emma:

Last year, I started looking more into how web three intersects with gaming.

Emma:

I have a real passion for the gaming industry and believe it's

Emma:

the future, especially when we talk about the metaverse, immersivity,

Emma:

and what that looks like.

Emma:

Being a digital native, gaming is like the fundamental backbone of that.

Emma:

With my vision and strong alignment with web three, I saw a lot of crossovers

Emma:

and started diving more into this space.

Emma:

I became particularly interested in digital fashion and how it relates

Emma:

to everything—how digital identity within a game, like your skins or

Emma:

what you're wearing, connects to that.

Emma:

From my background in web three, I saw that

Emma:

NFTs would be the most suited distribution channel for digital goods

Emma:

moving forward, being able to back their authenticity and transparency.

Emma:

That’s when I founded DIGITALAX, which sits at the intersection of digital

Emma:

fashion, gaming, NFTs, and crypto.

Jordan:

That was a lot!

Jordan:

I want to dive into all the core technologies that we need to make sure

Jordan:

the audience understands, but first, let’s talk a little bit about DIGITALAX

Jordan:

to give people an idea of where you’re coming from and what you're up to.

Jordan:

What is it, and how is it relevant for folks in the game industry?

Emma:

Sure.

Emma:

So, DIGITALAX is a protocol built on top of the Ethereum network and also the

Emma:

Matic network, which is a sustainable layer-two solution for Ethereum.

Emma:

What it allows is for digital fashion designers to create 3D digital fashion

Emma:

skins with in-game utility—they don't have to be, but they can—and list

Emma:

them on our marketplace as NFTs.

Emma:

Then, players can come in, purchase these digital fashion skins,

Emma:

and take them into different web two gaming environments.

Emma:

Through the architecture we’ve set up,

Emma:

they can bring their NFT skins into the game, start playing, and engage in

Emma:

what we call "casual esports battles."

Emma:

They can score on a leaderboard and get paid in cryptocurrency

Emma:

for participating or

Emma:

just earn an income through play.

Emma:

It’s a completely decentralized ecosystem built on native web three infrastructure.

Emma:

But the broader scope of what we're doing is all about bridging and onboarding

Emma:

players, creators, designers, and developers into web three through web two.

Emma:

It’s about injecting more opportunity and freedom for stakeholders in the ecosystem.

Emma:

The gaming industry today is built on a lot of precarity—uncertainty, particularly

Emma:

for indie developers or designers, where it's hard to secure consistent income.

Emma:

Web three is all about creating an ecosystem that allows

Emma:

designers, developers, and players

Emma:

new access channels for income, making it more sustainable to

Emma:

build a livelihood and career.

Jordan:

So, there was a lot there, and I have a feeling that a lot of people in my

Jordan:

audience did not understand things like Ethereum, layer two, scalable solutions.

Jordan:

I want to make sure we go through the basics so that the audience

Jordan:

can understand some of the

Jordan:

deeper concepts.

Jordan:

Let’s start by talking about what Ethereum or any sort of smart contract system is.

Jordan:

We don't necessarily need to get into the layer two solution part,

Jordan:

but we can touch on it briefly.

Jordan:

So, you're someone in the game industry, you know crypto is a thing, and you

Jordan:

know NFTs are like collectibles.

Jordan:

Where does Ethereum fit in?

Emma:

So, Ethereum is kind of like the new Internet in a sense.

Emma:

We have the Internet now, what’s referred to as web two.

Emma:

Ethereum is like an upgraded version of the Internet that allows

Emma:

you to properly exchange value and ownership over the Internet.

Emma:

The current Internet today is all kind of copies in a sense,

Emma:

and it's centrally controlled.

Emma:

Every product, service, or interaction goes through a central stakeholder.

Emma:

What Ethereum

Emma:

allows is this upgraded or new web three Internet that’s completely decentralized.

Emma:

When you’re creating transactions on this new Internet, it doesn’t just have to mean

Emma:

financial transactions.

Emma:

It could be transferring information from one point to another.

Emma:

The consensus is achieved through different nodes in the network,

Emma:

which are completely decentralized.

Emma:

So, it's not like you have a gatekeeper saying yes or no to

Emma:

whether a transaction is valid.

Emma:

Anyone with a web three-enabled device, like an application on your phone or

Emma:

laptop, can participate in this ecosystem and verify information being transferred.

Jordan:

Let me try to rephrase that to make sure everyone is with us

Jordan:

and to check that I’ve got it right.

Jordan:

So, if you think about the way we buy and sell things over the Internet

Jordan:

now, we always rely on some third party—Amazon, Apple, or someone who

Jordan:

manages a ledger behind the curtain.

Jordan:

Meanwhile, we have open protocols like TCP/IP and HTML, but those aren’t

Jordan:

secure enough to transact real value.

Jordan:

Ethereum creates an open protocol that doesn’t need a specific

Jordan:

authority but is secure enough to allow transactions of real value.

Emma:

Exactly, yeah.

Emma:

It’s completely transparent as well.

Emma:

What that means is the ledger itself can be viewed and verified by anyone.

Emma:

You can go online today to specific interfaces and view the entire transaction

Emma:

history of Ethereum since its inception.

Emma:

So, it's all about creating an open, transparent protocol where

Emma:

the verification isn’t handled by centralized gatekeepers, but

Emma:

rather by a decentralized system.

Jordan:

Got it.

Jordan:

And as a holder of Matic myself, I think I understand that part,

Jordan:

which is that Ethereum has problems with how popular it’s become.

Jordan:

While they’re working on that, there’s this new system that

Jordan:

helps speed it up and then settles down into the Ethereum protocol.

Emma:

Yeah, well, I know it’s getting a bit more technical, but layer two

Emma:

solutions are really important, especially for people coming into this space.

Emma:

They matter because people often hear negative things about blockchain, Bitcoin,

Emma:

or Ethereum—like the sustainability concerns or stories of massive energy use.

Emma:

That’s because the consensus mechanism that verifies transactions across

Emma:

the decentralized nodes is known as proof of work, which requires energy

Emma:

output to validate and reconcile transactions on the network.

Emma:

The numbers aren’t always accurate, and there are

Emma:

a lot of

Emma:

renewable sources involved, but proof of work

Emma:

does require energy.

Emma:

Layer two solutions are a more recent advancement because Ethereum is

Emma:

currently in the process of upgrading to Ethereum 2.0, which will change

Emma:

the consensus mechanism from proof of

Emma:

work to proof of stake, which is 99% more energy efficient.

Emma:

But that transition takes time—it will be about two years before

Emma:

it's fully realized.

Emma:

In the meantime, these layer two solutions operate on top of the Ethereum network

Emma:

and validate transactions using proof of stake.

Emma:

This is a much more sustainable solution.

Emma:

As you mentioned, Ethereum can get overloaded because it’s so popular.

Emma:

Currently, Ethereum handles a maximum of about 15 to 25 transactions per

Emma:

second, which makes it very slow.

Emma:

You also

Emma:

have to pay network fees, known as gas fees, to push transactions through.

Emma:

When the network gets busy, these fees can go through the roof—you could end

Emma:

up paying thousands of dollars for a transaction worth only a few hundred.

Emma:

Layer two solutions help bring those gas fees

Emma:

down from thousands of dollars to just a few cents, which

Emma:

is crucial for the ecosystem.

Jordan:

Right.

Jordan:

A lot of technologies have trouble scaling at first and

Jordan:

need to overcome scaling issues.

Jordan:

Would you say these are scaling issues?

Emma:

Exactly.

Emma:

It’s growing pains from operating on the bleeding edge, which

Emma:

is really what web three is.

Emma:

Even though we’re breaking it down, onboarding people into

Emma:

the industry is still incredibly difficult because the space is so

Emma:

new.

Emma:

There are

Emma:

a lot of moving parts, caveats, and things to be aware of.

Emma:

The

Emma:

technology

Emma:

is still evolving, and we're going through the growing

Emma:

pains to get to the next stage.

Jordan:

Got it.

Jordan:

And putting myself in the shoes of the audience, I think they might be wondering

Jordan:

how this relates to the game industry.

Jordan:

We make games, and people can do transactions inside our games.

Jordan:

So, what’s the problem?

Jordan:

How do these technologies improve on what we’re already doing in our games?

Emma:

Good question.

Emma:

To answer that, it's important

Emma:

to first consider where the gaming industry is headed.

Emma:

A lot of

Emma:

people talk about how society and the global economy are becoming

Emma:

much more digitally native.

Emma:

Not that we aren’t already, but there’s a transition

Emma:

happening towards full immersion—whether that’s through VR, AR, or a hybrid mix.

Emma:

A lot of us will start interacting, transacting, and

Emma:

communicating in fully immersive

Emma:

digital environments.

Emma:

This concept, known as the metaverse, gets thrown around a lot.

Emma:

It originally came from the novel Snow Crash, but the idea is that

Emma:

value becomes incredibly important in this new digital world.

Emma:

Just

Emma:

like in the physical world, where we transfer value through networks

Emma:

when we communicate and transact, we will need a system for doing the

Emma:

same in a fully digital environment.

Emma:

The current web two system is built on a gatekeeper model, where

Emma:

centralized parties control transactions

Emma:

and validate information transfer.

Emma:

This becomes problematic when you

Emma:

consider the need for more access

Emma:

and opportunity in a fully digital world.

Emma:

Web three, blockchain, crypto, and NFTs are all about decentralizing that access.

Emma:

It’s not about breaking down all the walls, but it gives people different and

Emma:

better keys to access these opportunities.

Emma:

The gaming industry is particularly interesting in this

Emma:

context because, today, when we

Emma:

spend time in a game, the value we create—whether through gameplay,

Emma:

characters, or stories—stays locked within one silo or ecosystem.

Emma:

That doesn’t fit with the vision of a digitally immersive future, where we

Emma:

want to take the value we create in one environment and bring it into another.

Emma:

Blockchain, NFTs, and crypto allow for a decentralized

Emma:

ledger, so that when we go into

Emma:

a game and interact with content—think of it like downloadable content

Emma:

[DLC]—it’s not just locked within that game’s environment.

Emma:

If the game disappears or we stop playing, the

Emma:

value doesn’t disappear.

Emma:

It’s stored on

Emma:

our personal ledger,

Emma:

making it interoperable across multiple digital environments.

Emma:

This creates a whole new layer of investment value for players,

Emma:

where content doesn’t just exist within one ecosystem, but can move

Emma:

across the broader digital world.

Jordan:

So, I want to do a lot of rephrasing today.

Jordan:

I really want to make sure that everyone's following along.

Jordan:

And the way I'm thinking about what you said—what it got me to kind of think

Jordan:

through—is that there are models where some company owns the whole thing, right?

Jordan:

You go into World of Warcraft, and it's all run by Blizzard.

Jordan:

Anything you do is managed by Blizzard and so on.

Jordan:

Then there are the marketplaces we've gotten used to in the game

Jordan:

industry, where it might be run by Apple, but third parties are able

Jordan:

to sell things and make money.

Jordan:

But they’re still at the whims of Apple.

Jordan:

There’s a third party controlling it.

Jordan:

So even though, yes, people can play a role and even run their entire

Jordan:

businesses inside, it's still basically owned by a single organization.

Jordan:

What you're talking about, when you talk about the metaverse—and

Jordan:

correct me if I’m wrong—is a public space, a virtual public space.

Jordan:

How would you do that today?

Jordan:

You kind of can't because we feel like someone needs to be in control

Jordan:

to manage those value interactions you were talking about earlier.

Jordan:

But now that we have something like Ethereum, you're saying we can

Jordan:

build virtual public spaces where anyone can own things, and it's

Jordan:

all managed by this distributed...

Emma:

...ledger, I think.

Emma:

And maybe to break it down a bit more—this might be a terrible analogy—but

Emma:

if you think about when we put our money in a bank today, the bank

Emma:

controls how we can spend and use that.

Emma:

We can withdraw and deposit as we like, but sometimes the bank says, “Hold on, you

Emma:

can't use that” or “You can't make this transaction,” and it becomes a hassle.

Emma:

It feels like another party is controlling the money or value that we earn.

Emma:

Now, think about cash.

Emma:

We can use cash anywhere, and

Emma:

we don’t need permission from anyone to spend it.

Emma:

If it's in our wallet, we don't need a third party telling us

Emma:

where or when we can use it.

Emma:

What blockchain and Ethereum provide is the ability to use

Emma:

digital value in the same way we use physical cash.

Emma:

We don't need a centralized provider saying, “Yes, you can

Emma:

do this,” or “No, you can't do that.” It’s the next stage of value

Emma:

and information transfer, allowing us to fully own that value.

Jordan:

In these virtual spaces, that makes sense.

Jordan:

And so if we're building these kinds of public virtual spaces where we

Jordan:

can trade back and forth, I think a natural question for a game developer

Jordan:

or someone in the game industry is:

Jordan:

What happens when one of these games ends?

Jordan:

Even if

Jordan:

you own something written on a distributed ledger, it doesn’t mean

Jordan:

you can use it anywhere else, right?

Jordan:

Like, if someone owns something in Fortnite, it’s not as simple as showing

Jordan:

they own it in somebody else’s app.

Jordan:

So how does this become practical in the near term with those challenges?

Emma:

That’s a really good question.

Emma:

It’s all about interoperability.

Emma:

The more interoperable a piece of content is, the more value it has.

Emma:

If a piece of content can only be used within one specific application,

Emma:

it has less value than if it could be used across 100 applications or in

Emma:

many different digital environments.

Emma:

But there are challenges.

Emma:

Technically, like you said, you

Emma:

can't just drag and drop a 3D object from Fortnite

Emma:

into GTA or Among Us

Emma:

without breaking fidelity and losing a lot of the information.

Emma:

It just can’t be done with that level of ease right now.

Emma:

So one side is looking at the technical scope—what’s required to allow more

Emma:

dynamism in transferring content.

Emma:

But the bigger issue, I think, is

Emma:

the

Emma:

incentive model.

Emma:

Why would a developer want their content to be transferable into another

Emma:

environment?

Emma:

In the current web two landscape, it's all about controlling

Emma:

the choke points of value.

Emma:

If you don’t control these choke points, you can’t generate value.

Emma:

So the mindset is, “I want to keep players in my ecosystem.

Emma:

I don’t want them going into another game or environment.”

Jordan:

Right.

Jordan:

People ask, "What’s the moat going to be in your business?"

Jordan:

Or they want you to maximize the switching costs.

Emma:

Exactly.

Emma:

That’s how web two operates—you

Emma:

control the value choke points to gain value.

Emma:

But web three is different.

Emma:

It’s not an extractive model; it’s a generative, circulatory model.

Emma:

The more

Emma:

that content can be transferred throughout the network,

Emma:

the more valuable it becomes.

Emma:

For example, if you’re a developer,

Emma:

your content

Emma:

becomes more valuable if players can take it into other environments.

Emma:

When a player owns something in your game, they don’t just own it within

Emma:

your game—they own it on a broader ledger, which is what NFTs allow.

Emma:

Players have verifiable ownership of unique content that’s attached to

Emma:

them or their cryptocurrency wallet.

Emma:

If they can take that content into another environment and use it in

Emma:

new ways, it increases its value.

Emma:

The application or utility doesn’t have to be the same across all environments.

Emma:

For instance, if someone owns a skin in Fortnite, when they take it into GTA, it

Emma:

doesn’t have to look exactly the same.

Emma:

Maybe in GTA, owning that skin gives them a power-up or a boost in a mission.

Emma:

Web three backs more

Emma:

value behind these assets, and the value comes from how much usage

Emma:

the asset has across the entire ecosystem, not just within one game.

Jordan:

Got it.

Jordan:

Every time there’s a big paradigm shift in platforms, the winners on the old

Jordan:

platforms don’t want to make the shift.

Jordan:

They get dragged kicking and screaming.

Jordan:

And that’s often an opportunity for new players to come in and succeed.

Jordan:

Mobile saw a wave of big publishing and development companies

Jordan:

get built for that reason.

Jordan:

Do you think that’s going to happen with this new distributed platform?

Emma:

Yeah, absolutely.

Emma:

For gatekeepers, it’s a threat.

Emma:

They benefit from

Emma:

the current web two environment

Emma:

because it’s extractive.

Emma:

This is especially interesting for the gaming industry because, while

Emma:

it’s a great industry, there are

Emma:

a lot of heartbreaking realities for developers.

Emma:

If you’re in the industry,

Emma:

you

Emma:

have two main routes: You

Emma:

either work for a big studio like Blizzard or

Emma:

EA, where the expectations and treatment can be harsh, or

Emma:

you try to set

Emma:

up an indie studio.

Emma:

But that’s incredibly precarious, with uncertainty about where your next paycheck

Emma:

is coming from or how to differentiate yourself in a crowded market.

Emma:

Even platforms

Emma:

like Steam and itch.io provide limited exposure for indie developers.

Emma:

You’re

Emma:

just another name in a huge database of games.

Emma:

The system

Emma:

isn’t supportive, and it doesn’t help developers create

Emma:

sustainable careers.

Emma:

It’s built on uncertainty and precarity.

Jordan:

I’d be interested to hear how web three fixes that.

Jordan:

To me, some of that is just the nature of the beast.

Jordan:

If you want to be a musician or

Jordan:

an actor, that’s precarious too.

Jordan:

How does this technology change that?

Jordan:

And does it also affect those industries?

Emma:

It does.

Emma:

Music is another industry

Emma:

being disrupted by web three.

Emma:

It’s not about removing all

Emma:

the gates—we still need some structure.

Emma:

But web three allows easier access

Emma:

to opportunities without centralized gatekeepers saying “yes” or

Emma:

“no.” With a web three-enabled device, anyone can access value

Emma:

without those barriers.

Jordan:

I’m trying to imagine what you mean, specifically

Jordan:

in terms of game development.

Jordan:

Do you mean someone can make virtual goods and sell them in this new open world?

Jordan:

Or are we talking about people taking on contracts to code through

Jordan:

some kind of bidding system?

Jordan:

What exactly are we talking about?

Emma:

Not so much

Emma:

a bidding system.

Emma:

Think of it more in terms of different commercial models.

Emma:

For example, NFTs allow new mechanisms for

Emma:

transacting value.

Emma:

In the current web two environment, developers have limited

Emma:

roadmaps for creating value.

Emma:

It’s like climbing a mountain with insurmountable obstacles.

Emma:

In web

Emma:

three,

Emma:

a developer can

Emma:

create

Emma:

personalized incentive mechanisms around their content,

Emma:

backing more value behind it.

Emma:

This gives players and creators

Emma:

more tangible value and creates liquidity within the ecosystem.

Emma:

It’s not about cutting out competition, but about giving

Emma:

developers

Emma:

tools to spin up

Emma:

programmable incentives that suit their player base and content creators.

Jordan:

An incentive system like, “Hey, if you make new spaceships for

Jordan:

our game, we’ll give you some of our in-game hard currency.” Is that the

Jordan:

kind of thing you’re thinking of?

Emma:

That's one thing.

Emma:

And that goes down a whole other rabbit hole of modding and how

Emma:

mod culture and modding are so fundamental to the gaming industry.

Emma:

It’s something that DIGITALAX and I are really supportive of, and it's exactly

Emma:

the message we're pushing forward as well.

Emma:

The metaverse is all about supporting sub-content creators or remix creators

Emma:

around an original piece of content.

Emma:

How do you generate more novelty and engagement?

Emma:

So, what you're saying—this idea of an automated content creation supply chain—I

Emma:

completely agree with.

Emma:

And I think it's important to figure out how to incentivize that.

Emma:

If you think about one big problem in the game industry today, especially

Emma:

with DLCs, it’s about how developers can ship content faster to their player base

Emma:

without going through crunch time every

Emma:

day.

Emma:

Having an incentivized supply chain could revolutionize that whole subcomponent.

Emma:

But not only that, this is where the NFT side comes in.

Emma:

NFTs themselves are an incentive mechanism for players.

Emma:

It's a customized incentive.

Emma:

Instead of content being just something players interact with, it becomes actual

Emma:

value—monetizable value—that players can create, store, trade, and transfer.

Emma:

That’s really what NFTs are.

Emma:

The most relatable definition is that it’s about creating value for other

Emma:

people that they can take outside of the game or content environment, which

Emma:

is an incentive mechanism in itself.

Jordan:

Here's something I wonder, and this is a bit philosophical.

Jordan:

When people tell me they're anarchists, I always think, “Aren’t

Jordan:

we already living in anarchy?

Jordan:

And this is just what happens—you get governments, you get companies—this

Jordan:

is anarchy, and anarchy leads to some amount of order.” Could we end up,

Jordan:

50 years from now, with a distributed system but with little fiefdoms within

Jordan:

it, and we’re back where we started?

Emma:

That’s a great question.

Emma:

And I think we’re at

Emma:

a crossroads right now.

Emma:

A lot of what we’re seeing in web three isn’t really web three—it’s web two

Emma:

with a surface layer of web three code.

Emma:

It’s not authentic to what web three is truly about, which is

Emma:

real decentralization and open protocols where anyone can come,

Emma:

interact, and generate value, or spin up personalized value realms.

Emma:

What we’re seeing today is large entities coming in and creating ecosystems

Emma:

that claim to be open, but when you

Emma:

look closely, they’re not.

Emma:

They’re just web two pumped onto blockchain technology

Emma:

as the underlying layer.

Emma:

A lot of traditional VCs have entered the space,

Emma:

acquiring web three startups, but putting them into

Emma:

the same structures as before.

Emma:

From an equity point of view,

Emma:

they’re offering liquidity to run the company or protocol

Emma:

but owning 50% of the tokens

Emma:

or shares.

Emma:

That’s not web three.

Emma:

A true web three ecosystem would be crypto-native,

Emma:

where the tokens and incentives are distributed fairly among

Emma:

active participants.

Emma:

That’s the biggest concern.

Emma:

As a builder in this space, living it day in and day out,

Emma:

we need to ask: How do we be authentic to web three?

Emma:

If we do it right,

Emma:

centralized providers and gatekeepers won’t be able to take full market share.

Emma:

But if

Emma:

we continue in the current direction, it’s just

Emma:

surface-level web three.

Jordan:

I’m thinking of things like Doge and XRP.

Emma:

Exactly.

Emma:

Take XRP, for example.

Emma:

It’s not really web three.

Emma:

Doge is a bit different—it’s like a meme coin, and there’s not much else to it.

Emma:

But

Emma:

even then, look at Elon Musk’s involvement.

Emma:

That’s a purely manipulated market, where the price of Doge moves

Emma:

based on tweets and social media.

Jordan:

The reason I don’t think it’s truly decentralized is because there

Jordan:

are a handful of wallets that hold a ridiculous percentage of the total supply.

Jordan:

So, like with stocks, if someone owns too much, they have too much control

Jordan:

for it to be considered decentralized.

Emma:

Exactly.

Emma:

That’s why

Emma:

DIGITALAX decided to

Emma:

build on Ethereum.

Emma:

Despite its flaws and growing pains, Ethereum is still

Emma:

the most authentic developer ecosystem, being true to what web three is.

Emma:

Not only is Ethereum’s token globally distributed, but its governance

Emma:

and participation are as well.

Emma:

On

Emma:

the other

Emma:

hand, newer blockchains like Flow, which many developers have heard of,

Emma:

especially in gaming, are not web three infrastructures—they’re web two.

Emma:

Flow is backed by VCs, and the tokens are controlled in a traditional equity

Emma:

sense, with vesting periods and unlocks.

Emma:

That’s

Emma:

not authentic to web three.

Emma:

For developers wanting to enter the space, it’s important to recognize

Emma:

that we’re still transitioning from web two to web three.

Emma:

While it won’t happen overnight, when you come in, you should choose

Emma:

the better option and aim to be native to web three infrastructure.

Jordan:

It also makes sense that companies would want to start off with

Jordan:

these quasi-web three systems like Flow.

Jordan:

I don’t think it’s necessarily wrong of them.

Jordan:

It helps get the process going, arguably, and it needs to happen in baby steps

Jordan:

because there’s only so much control people are willing to give up right now.

Emma:

I agree to an extent.

Emma:

I do think decisions could be made with more conscious awareness.

Emma:

Some

Emma:

stakeholders talk about the positives of web three,

Emma:

but their actions don’t align with that.

Emma:

They’re coming in for an exit, and that’s the issue.

Emma:

When we think about the web two tech era and

Emma:

the internet bubble, it was all about getting in for the

Emma:

exit—setting up a startup

Emma:

just

Emma:

to sell and double wealth down the line.

Emma:

Web three, especially for core builders right now, shouldn’t be about that.

Emma:

It’s not about being stoic or

Emma:

giving away value for free, but it’s about

Emma:

building something for a

Emma:

bigger mission than just your

Emma:

own project or company.

Emma:

We’re setting up an ecosystem that’s going to revolutionize the way we live.

Jordan:

That makes sense.

Jordan:

I’ve noticed that a lot of the recent people

Jordan:

connecting with me are involved in the gaming NFT space.

Jordan:

It’s clearly blowing up, probably with a mix of authentic and inauthentic

Jordan:

projects.

Jordan:

For those thinking about doing something in this space, do you have advice?

Jordan:

Are there mistakes you’re seeing that you’d like to share with people

Jordan:

considering or working on a project like this?

Emma:

Yeah, so I guess to keep it more specific to the game dev

Emma:

side, there are a few things.

Emma:

Creating a truly web three game is not easy because you have to think

Emma:

about a whole other layer, like I was saying before, of incentives.

Emma:

How do you create an ecosystem of liquidity and value transfer

Emma:

between the core development team, the modding ecosystem, and your

Emma:

player ecosystem or fan base?

Emma:

The best example I can give is a game called Skyweaver.

Emma:

It’s a blockchain game that’s been in testing for over a year.

Emma:

They haven’t fully moved into web three yet—they're testing on a network

Emma:

with no real value transactions.

Emma:

They’ve spent over a year with

Emma:

a small test group of players

Emma:

practicing all the transactions without real value.

Emma:

My advice for developers is to do it right.

Emma:

It comes back to the idea of authenticity.

Emma:

You don’t want to rush into this space overnight just

Emma:

because of hype.

Emma:

Take

Emma:

time to understand why web three is important for the future

Emma:

and the mission behind it.

Emma:

You could consider a hybrid approach between web two

Emma:

and web three, which is what

Emma:

DIGITALAX is

Emma:

helping developers with as well.

Emma:

We’re plugging web two digital environments into web three with

Emma:

blockchain and NFTs, allowing developers to leverage that.

Emma:

More importantly, test your incentive mechanisms and programmable incentives.

Emma:

If you get that right, when

Emma:

you go

Emma:

live, you'll be ahead of those hybrid or inauthentic ecosystems that are just

Emma:

focused on trading cards or mechanics.

Emma:

It’s about

Emma:

creating

Emma:

content that people engage with in a more metaverse context.

Jordan:

That’s great, I appreciate that.

Jordan:

A lot of people are looking at this as a blue ocean, thinking they need to

Jordan:

get something out as fast as possible.

Jordan:

Your perspective on taking time is really interesting.

Jordan:

I'd love to hear more about what DIGITALAX is doing and how it can help

Jordan:

studios that are already going down this road or are thinking about it.

Emma:

Sure.

Emma:

Digital fashion is a core part of what we’re doing,

Emma:

especially skins, self-expression, and identity.

Emma:

These are values we see as intrinsic to building out the metaverse

Emma:

and creating value for people.

Emma:

It’s about identity—how they shape and mod it.

Emma:

We’ve also launched something called ESpA, which is part of the DIGITALAX ecosystem.

Emma:

It’s the first indie and modded casual esports platform.

Emma:

Imagine

Emma:

an app on your phone where, as a player, you can log on anytime, choose your

Emma:

favorite content, and start playing.

Emma:

You can earn an income or a living through cryptocurrency or tokens.

Emma:

We work with the modding and indie developer ecosystems, allowing

Emma:

them to plug their content into

Emma:

ESpA.

Emma:

Players can buy NFTs or digital fashion from our marketplace,

Emma:

take them into these ecosystems, and start playing.

Emma:

The profits and liquidity from the tokens are distributed to developers

Emma:

and designers, allowing them

Emma:

to earn an income.

Emma:

It’s a separate system from

Emma:

their

Emma:

web two in-game economy—it’s

Emma:

an additional layer of utility, access, and novelty for players,

Emma:

leveraging NFTs, crypto, and blockchain without developers having

Emma:

to integrate Ethereum or Solidity into

Emma:

their content.

Jordan:

Okay, and I don’t know if this is a competitor of yours, but

Jordan:

is this something like Chain Games, or is this a different system?

Emma:

Chain Games is more like yield, but what we’re doing is different.

Emma:

We focus on providing utility and novelty for players.

Emma:

It's also about

Emma:

helping players level up from amateur to pro.

Emma:

Just

Emma:

like how it’s hard for developers to make a sustainable living

Emma:

in the gaming industry,

Emma:

it’s hard for players too.

Emma:

Right now, you either stream on Twitch 24/7 hoping for a

Emma:

lottery ticket, or you give up.

Emma:

With ESpA, players can engage in casual esports battles, play, and earn an income.

Emma:

It’s separate from the current game economies, and it’s all about

Emma:

helping developers onboard to web three in a transitional way.

Emma:

Instead of bulldozing what

Emma:

they have now,

Emma:

they can layer web three

Emma:

on top of their existing content.

Jordan:

Is wagering part of this?

Jordan:

Like, do competitors put something on the line, and if they win, they earn

Jordan:

something, and if they lose, they don’t?

Emma:

Good question.

Emma:

It’s not really about wagering, but it does require skill.

Emma:

Players purchase skins or digital fashion from the marketplace, and these

Emma:

are their in-game identity markers.

Emma:

That’s how we

Emma:

authenticate and verify players in-game.

Emma:

We track

Emma:

their winning streaks, leaderboard

Emma:

positions, and payouts.

Emma:

It’s also

Emma:

about building their metaversal digital identity through

Emma:

fashion and digital fashion.

Jordan:

Got it.

Jordan:

Is there anything else you want to share as we wrap up the interview?

Emma:

I think those are the main points.

Emma:

If anyone is interested in this space, I’m always happy to chat.

Emma:

Web three is a much bigger mission, and

Emma:

once you go down the rabbit hole,

Emma:

you realize it’s about creating ecosystems of access and opportunity for everyone.

Emma:

It’s much more than just NFTs or $69 million JPEGS—it’s about

Emma:

building something meaningful.

Jordan:

So where can people reach you?

Emma:

The best place is my Discord.

Emma:

If you go to the DIGITALAX website, DIGITALAX.xyz, you’ll

Emma:

see all our social links.

Emma:

You can join our Discord channel, and from there, you can DM me

Emma:

or send a message in the general chat.

Emma:

I’m one of the moderators, so I’ll get back to you and we

Emma:

can set up a call or chat more.

Jordan:

Emma Jane, you are an absolute dynamo.

Jordan:

It’s been fun watching you make things happen, and thanks for coming on the show.

Emma:

Thank you so much, Jordan.

Jordan:

Another episode of Playmakers podcast is in the bag.

Jordan:

If you want the show notes with all the links, you can find

Jordan:

them at playmakerspodcast.com.

Jordan:

If

Jordan:

you want to give feedback or suggest topics for future

Jordan:

episodes, you can reach me there.

Jordan:

And if you want to support what we do, the best way is to write

Jordan:

us a review and subscribe.

Jordan:

I’ll see you on the next episode—we have some great stuff coming your way.

Jordan:

Catch you then on Playmakers.

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Playmakers - The Game Industry Podcast

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